Overland caravan build

[Shep The Disco]

That would make a pretty big camper given pop out sides like the Americans have 

[landroversforever]

1 hour ago, Ed Poore said:

Since we're on the subject of 5th wheels is anyone here knowledgeable about them?

My understanding is the purpose of the 5th wheel is to shift some of the weight onto the drive axles of the tractor (tow vehicle). So for example the Sandringham has a 2t payload on the bed on the rear and is actually plated for a 4t trailer behind it.

So (assuming one has an appropriate license) I would have thought that I could have a trailer + payload combination that totals 6t if one created a gooseneck trailer or fifth wheel trailer that shifted 2t of its weight onto the 6x6?

The question is is such a trailer possible in the UK behind what is nominally a historic vehicle / 4x4? One assumption I'm working on is the trailer would have to be air braked but that wouldn't be an issue theoretically as there are air over hydraulic systems available and I know someone (this is where the theory comes in as it depends on if he could find it) who has one. 

Reasonably so…. @NRS91 is the man.

5th wheel/gooseneck is able to have 3500kg on the trailer axles PLUS whatever payload the tow vehicle can take on the pin. So if you’ve got say 1.5t capacity in the bed of something like a 110 pickup, 3.5t for the trailer axles and you’ve got a trailer weight of 5T. 

Some versions have electric brakes, some will use air. 

Nick tagged above has a lovely mini artic on a 3.5T Iveco. 

[muddy]

A towing vehicle with MAM not exceeding 3500kg may tow a trailer up to 7m length excluding the drawbar. Hence why many large caravans and boat trailers have very long drawbar legs.

 

 

[Ed Poore]

1 minute ago, Shep The Disco said:

That would make a pretty big camper given pop out sides like the Americans have 

Wasn't actually thinking of a camper but it'd be handy for shifting stuff >2.7t which is about the payload limit for a 3.5t trailer.

For example a tonne for a plant trailer and I'd be able to shift 5t plant about for a mate down the road without him having to use the tractors. 

[landroversforever]

Just now, muddy said:

A towing vehicle with MAM not exceeding 3500kg may tow a trailer up to 7m length excluding the drawbar. Hence why many large caravans and boat trailers have very long drawbar legs.

 

 

I’ve not gone digging, but I want to say that the length has been upped ‘recently’. I know the max width was upped to match an HGV at 2.55m

[muddy]

Gov Website:

Towing weight and width limits

Most cars have a maximum weight they can tow. It’s usually listed in the handbook or specification sheet.

Alternatively the vehicle’s ‘gross train weight’ may be listed on the vehicle identification number (VIN) plate on the car. This is normally under the bonnet or inside the driver’s door.

The gross train weight is the weight of the fully-loaded car plus fully-loaded trailer and must not be exceeded.

If your VIN plate does not list a train weight, you should not use your vehicle for towing.

Maximum width

The maximum trailer width for any towing vehicle is 2.55 metres.

Maximum length

If your vehicle’s maximum authorised mass (MAM) is 3,500kg or less, you cannot tow a trailer that’s longer than 7 metres.

If your vehicle’s MAM is more than 3,500kg then the maximum lengths are:

• 12 metres for the trailer towed by the vehicle
• 18 metres for the vehicle and trailer combined
• 3.05 metres for how far the load can overhang the back of the trailer (whatever the length of the trailer is)

Maximum lengths do not include the A-frame (the frame that connects your car to the trailer).

 

 

[NRS91]

1 hour ago, landroversforever said:

Reasonably so…. @NRS91 is the man.

5th wheel/gooseneck is able to have 3500kg on the trailer axles PLUS whatever payload the tow vehicle can take on the pin. So if you’ve got say 1.5t capacity in the bed of something like a 110 pickup, 3.5t for the trailer axles and you’ve got a trailer weight of 5T. 

Some versions have electric brakes, some will use air. 

Nick tagged above has a lovely mini artic on a 3.5T Iveco. 

Ahh you have summoned the mini-artic nerd....

So take a 110 HiCap with 3500kg GVW and 7000kg GTW (same as our Iveco Daily)

If the towing vehicle has a payload of 1500kg then the trailer can be 5000kg gross weight with 3500kg combined trailer axle weight and 1500kg imposed load on the king pin. Trailer needs to be under 1200kg ULW which gives a payload of 3800kg.

If you go over 3500kg combined trailer axle weight you move from 02 class Semi-Trailer to an 03 class which then needs MOT and ABS etc so worth sticking to 3500kg...

(My guess is the 4000kg trailer rating would have been for the vacuum/air braked trailers like the old utility board reel carriers?)

This is our trailer weights:

 

1 hour ago, muddy said:

Maximum length

If your vehicle’s maximum authorised mass (MAM) is 3,500kg or less, you cannot tow a trailer that’s longer than 7 metres.

Maximum lengths do not include the A-frame (the frame that connects your car to the trailer).

Was this on the latest gov site? I thought the 7m rule had been dropped?
Im certain for semi-trailers its max 12m from kingpin to rear of trailer.

[Escape]

Many years ago, I saw a Dutch Landcruiser with a 5th wheel, I think they said it was a 5ton trailer, which would match the numbers above.

Recently, we're increasingly seeing chassis-cab vans with a 5th wheel trailer. Some are clearly aimed at increasing the payload, usually low beds with mini diggers or similar. We also see some box trailers used by rental and moving companies. The big advantage over a light truck of the same capacity is that you get away with a BE license instead of of C or C1 (in EU). Often the trailer is coupled so closely it no longer articulates, so can be driven as a 3-axled rigid, meaning less hassle when reversing (for those who can't handle a trailer). Because there is a coupling and the tractor has its own registration, it is technically an articulated vehicle and not a rigid.

[NRS91]

13 minutes ago, Escape said:

Many years ago, I saw a Dutch Landcruiser with a 5th wheel, I think they said it was a 5ton trailer, which would match the numbers above.

Recently, we're increasingly seeing chassis-cab vans with a 5th wheel trailer. Some are clearly aimed at increasing the payload, usually low beds with mini diggers or similar. We also see some box trailers used by rental and moving companies. The big advantage over a light truck of the same capacity is that you get away with a BE license instead of of C or C1 (in EU). Often the trailer is coupled so closely it no longer articulates, so can be driven as a 3-axled rigid, meaning less hassle when reversing (for those who can't handle a trailer). Because there is a coupling and the tractor has its own registration, it is technically an articulated vehicle and not a rigid.

Mini artics are popular in europe they are called "Minisattelzug".

The "rigid" B+E system is called "Klixtar".

American 5th wheels are pretty light, I have a 30ft Jayco which is 10,600lbs gross weight which is 4820kg but they are pretty much balsa wood and 1mm tin sheet 🤣

[landroversforever]

How does the rigid thing work?

[NRS91]

14 minutes ago, landroversforever said:

How does the rigid thing work?

Heres the big version, its Clixtar not Klixtar my bad!

[Arjan]

Not sure what the situation is in the UK after the BREXIT, but......

This is in the EU 10 ton trainweight on a B+E licence.....

FYI : this is actuall a small one.... I have taken one on a spin to FR that was 18 mtrs....

A 40 Ft. 5th wheel caravan.

Towed very, very well.

[Arjan]

The clixtar is from the same cmpany. Look carefully and notice the rear lights on the 2nd rear axle. Thing is under EU law a car+trailer

Like this one : 7 tonnes under B+E

[NRS91]

6 minutes ago, Arjan said:

 

 

That one looks like a Clixtar one with a 4x2 tractor unit and a 3 axle trailer (the rear most axle on the Iveco actually being part of the trailer).

I think it was mainly the Dutch that had 10-12ton train weight, im sure the rest of europe was 7.5ton with UK being 8250kg then 7500kg and now new licences being 7000kg? would need to double check

[Arjan]

Clixtar is a sale name for Veldhuizen trailers" in Loosdrecht, Holland.

Many, many years ago they found an interesting EU bit of law and have been building very interesting B+E solutions since then.

Have a look here if you want to see some weird stuff :

https://veldhuizen.nl/

They now also do C stuff, tractors and the likes.

You'll find them everywhere in Europe these days

[Shep The Disco]

40ft caravan I think on a landy would be quite a handful 😂

[Jocklandjohn]

10 hours ago, miketomcat said:

Not sure it classifies as really cool but it's interesting. I've got a five seat car and a four bed trailer, that is a three seat car (at most) with a trailer to accommodate about thirty. It would be interesting to see the layout inside but I don't see how it wins over a normal caravan.

Mike

I think you missed my slightly sardonic intentions!  Up close it looked even less impressive. I'm not sure what the fabricator was using as a fixed point for reference when measuring but there are several squinty bits.  When I get home I'll post the pic of the bright pink Disco towing a bright pink half-Disco sleeping compartment which was a tad ott. 

Edited December 24, 2023 by Jocklandjohn

[Blanco]

Very interested in all this at one time,.. I had a saw mill which was 9 meters long (and therefore too long?) on a regular ball hitch, because the power unit was right at the tail of the trailer it's weight distribution was less than ideal, I would have loved to make it into a semi-trailer.

Most early Land Rovers at one time had a manufacturers trailer capacity of 4t I think, but of course the 3.5t limit became the norm which meant that for the extra 0.5t you needed power brakes, which few bothered with.

B+E licence when I did it had an upper limit of 12.5t which a few French and Dutch manufacturers explored, and there were some great rigs out there, mainly designed for working in inner urban enviroments. I still think that 5th wheel format is inherently more stable and should be encouraged.

In Britain nobody really took it up. The uncertainty about the legislation put people off, ... there was an outfit in Wales that did 5th wheel caravans, with either US pickups or small tractor units. ... and an outfit (Astra?) that did a few commercial trailers. 

I think the benefit for caravans is being able to set up camp and then go off shopping etc. in the tractor unit whatever it may be, which is massively more manoeuvreable / parkable etc.

[NRS91]

That company in Wales is Fifth Wheel Co, weve got one of their trailers and just got one of their Navaras to tow it (dont worry its reinforced)

Theres also Fifth Wheel Europe who do a lovely gooseneck conversion and their latest braking system is electric and runs off the 13 pin plug (though i prefer air) they have a dealer in Derbyshire.

[Ed Poore]

On 12/24/2023 at 4:48 PM, NRS91 said:

Ahh you have summoned the mini-artic nerd....

So take a 110 HiCap with 3500kg GVW and 7000kg GTW (same as our Iveco Daily)

If the towing vehicle has a payload of 1500kg then the trailer can be 5000kg gross weight with 3500kg combined trailer axle weight and 1500kg imposed load on the king pin. Trailer needs to be under 1200kg ULW which gives a payload of 3800kg.

How do those numbers add up? Is that assuming a 2t 110 HiCap? Is the 1200kg ULW a rule or just realistically what a trailer is likely to be?

On 12/24/2023 at 4:48 PM, NRS91 said:

If you go over 3500kg combined trailer axle weight you move from 02 class Semi-Trailer to an 03 class which then needs MOT and ABS etc so worth sticking to 3500kg...

What happens if you don't have ABS on the tow vehicle?

On 12/24/2023 at 4:48 PM, NRS91 said:

(My guess is the 4000kg trailer rating would have been for the vacuum/air braked trailers like the old utility board reel carriers?)

No mention of vacuum/air brakes for that rating but bear in mind this is on a 1982 vehicle with three axles, all of which have oversized brakes compared to any LR at the time. Perhaps LR determined the braking capability was capable for the extra half tonne.

FWIW this is the vehicle in question

On 12/24/2023 at 4:48 PM, NRS91 said:

 

 

[NRS91]

31 minutes ago, Ed Poore said:

How do those numbers add up? Is that assuming a 2t 110 HiCap? Is the 1200kg ULW a rule or just realistically what a trailer is likely to be?

It was simplified a little but its not uncommon for a Iveco Daily or Defender 110 chassis cab to be under 2ton ULW.
If a 7ton mini artic went over a weigh bridge loaded to capacity it would be 3500kg on the vehicle axles and 3500kg on the trailer axles as per normal but the trailer is borrowing the vehicles payload to add to itself as the king pin weight which assuming a tractor ULW of 2ton would give you a trailer gross weight of 5000kg (1500kg king pin + 3500kg on axles).

The 1200kg trailer ULW rule is part of Constructions & Use regs (cant remember the exact weight but its around 1200kg) but basically if the trailer is over a certain ULW and has coupled brakes (vacuum/air/electric) then it needs MOT.
I know of mini-artic trailers over 20ft deck length (+gooseneck) that are 950kg ULW from Fifth Wheel Europe.

38 minutes ago, Ed Poore said:

What happens if you don't have ABS on the tow vehicle?

Trailer ABS is separate to Vehicle ABS, on HGVs its just 5 wires (+ve, -ve1, +ign, -ve2, warning lamp [Can Hi, Can Lo on modern stuff too]). This would only apply to trailers over 3500kg combined axle weight after a certain date.
If you are making a trailer then staying at a max 3500kg combined axle weight makes life much easier for Type Approval as you are class 02 rather than the heavier class 03 (ABS, markers, etc, etc)

 

44 minutes ago, Ed Poore said:

No mention of vacuum/air brakes for that rating but bear in mind this is on a 1982 vehicle with three axles, all of which have oversized brakes compared to any LR at the time. Perhaps LR determined the braking capability was capable for the extra half tonne.

Tow vehicle age or size is irrelevant, any trailer over 3500kg GVW must have coupled brakes and a suitable coupling, over-run brakes and 50mm ball are only legal up to 3500kg.
Incidentally any semi-trailer must use coupled brakes too and since a few years ago dolly trailers must as well. 

 

Its a hell of a minefield and this info is pulled from several locations like C&U regs, MOT rules and Type Approval/IVA docs. Not a one stop shop to find it all lol

[Blanco]

10 hours ago, NRS91 said:

Its a hell of a minefield and this info is pulled from several locations like C&U regs, MOT rules and Type Approval/IVA docs. Not a one stop shop to find it all lol

And the various Government offices often aren't aware, I did some work a few years ago with the VRO in Bristol to get Type approval on said sawmill trailer (bare frame) and they were solely concerned that it met the O2 profile. It didn't appear on their radar that it was over 7m long for example. The trailer eventually passed as a built up sawmill. I myself got an Individual approval in France for mine, .. took some time with French bureaucracy being what it is. And not that anyone should take advantage of it, but bear in mind that the Police Service know very little about it either, If you are stopped with an unusual rig, provided you have a clear and convincing narrative  and all the basic paperwork, they are unlikely to take it further, too much unfamiliar paperwork.  (I have experience that as well, ... )

[miketomcat]

After rather a lot of time working on the house/ibex I've had a few spare hours to spend on the caravan.

Awning rail so we can use the large porch awning we picked up cheap last year. It's riveted every 200mm and sealed with Saba. We test fitted the awning and while it was up I taped up the damaged air beam sleeve, there's a couple of other repairs required next time it up but that why it was cheap.

Next up was some proper wind down legs, again bought last year. The position for these is quite tricky, I don't want them on the chassis because they will be to low. This means they need to go on the box itself which is fine but this gave me a head ache. The front legs can't go in board enough to bolt straight through the floor because they hit the drawbar this meant the out board mounts landed on the aluminium corner section. I've drilled and tapped through the Ali into the fibreglass and ply floor. Hopefully this should be fine but I am going to glue them on with Saba as well. The inboard mount is through bolted.

The rear legs will go inside the chassis, again on the box but I've drilled a hole through the chassis rail to get to the winder bolt. Unfortunately I've killed a hole saw doing it so had to use a smaller hole saw and had to open it up. Again the inboard end will clash with the chassis but this time it's just a bed support that not doing anything now so cut them out. Touched in the paint so I'll fit the legs tomorrow

When I fitted the box I left the trailers rear cross member intact just incase I needed to use it. With the leg position sorted I could cut the excess off and slim it down. This will improve departure angle and tidy the rear up.

Mike

[miketomcat]

Rear legs mounted tonight.

Mike

[miketomcat]

Decided to fit the water tank and clorifier to day. The tank sits under the bottom bunk but pokes through the bulkhead into the under bed (double bed) storage area. I made a slight miscalculation and set the bunk a little to low so had to cut the Ali ground away.

The clorifier fits under the step/seat also needed to cut through the bulkhead into the kitchen area for the connections.

Mike