Clunk from the back

[Landy7]

My 2007 - 2.4TDCI puma 110 will throw a clunk/bang upon gear change when accelerating. If I let the clutch go very slow, there is no clunk, everything is smooth, but if I let the clutch go at a normal pace, I get a clunk which comes from the back.

After searching on Google, I think it might be 2 things, drivetrain related or A frame ball joint/bushes. Drivetrain, it could be the propshaft, diff or half shaft spline wear.

To find out if it's drivetrain related or A frame related, is it a good idea to remove the rear propshaft and drive around without it? If the clunk is gone, it would be drivetrain? If the clunk is still present, it's A frame related?

[Gazzar]

With the engine off, and on a flat surface, chock the front wheels, jack up one rear wheel.

Put in gear and see how much play you have in the wheel, by rotating it back and forward.

 

[Snagger]

While the wheel is off, you can also pry the plastic cap of the hub flanges and look for spline play.  I’ll wager there is play and rust - LR self-sabotaged 300Tdi and later models by adding a seal inside the stub axles that prevents oil lubrication of these splines, causing accelerated wear that gets even faster once the rust get in.  Usually, new drive flanges are enough, but you will need to check the shaft splines too.  The diff ends are almost always fine as they’re lubricated.

I doubt you’d have diff issues, but it’s worth checking the pinion for play - that is the weak point of that diff type.

Driving without the rear prop will not determine between suspension or transmission faults as with the rear transmission disconnected, the axle case will not have the torque reaction that stresses the suspension.  You just need to try to move the suspension joints with a pry bar and look for play.

[Tanuki]

A 'clunk' on my 90TD5 turned out to be the nuts holding the rear prop to the transfer-box/brake-drum flange had de-torqued themselves a bit.

One thing to try - with the handbrake applied, have someone 'rock' the car back and forth by pushing repeatedly from behind - if they time the pushes right you can get quite a bit of oscuillation set up (like pushing a child on a swing) by way of the transmission-slack and suspension.

Then while they're doing this, crawl around underneath and listen!

In my case the drive-flange revealed itself by creaking when subjected to this rocking treatment.

[Landy7]

Thank you for all the tips, much appreciated! I finally found the time to do some testing.

First of all, the easy part, like Tanuki said, I checked the nuts holding the rear prop to the brake drum and yes indeed, they were loose! Tightened them back up and went for a test drive. Result is a bit better, but the clunks are still there, but a small improvement!

Next up, a tip from Gazzar. I shut down the engine, jacked up one rear wheel, handbrake off, put in first gear and rotate wheel back and forth.. Honestly I'm not sure what's supposed to be the outcome? I filmed it ->

I have no idea if this is good or bad or ?? Or should I've left the handbrake on?

Next up, Snagger, I took off the rear wheel and pried the plastic cap off, picture in attachment. It's not rusty or dry, it's oily 😛 But it's not leaking, the plastic cap only has a drop of oil and I've never seen a leak from there. But, how can I determine play? It looks fine.. Or should I take it out completely?

While I was underneat and rocking a few stuff back and forth, I've found something that made a clunk noise when rocking, see attachment. I could torque it up and the noise was gone when I've rocked it back and fort. Went for a test drive and again, it's better, smoother, but still there.. So I'm afraid it will be a bit of everything

Just to be clear, for example, I'm on the road, engine running, standing still, cluth fully pressed, first gear, when I release the clutch slowly, no clunk, drives away smooth, if I let the clutch go a bit faster, I get that rear clunk. It may be my driving, but I'm pretty sure you don't always need to let the clutch go that slow. My 30 year old military 110 drives smoother..

Edited August 22, 2019 by Koen110

[Bowie69]

Sounds to me like you want to do a proper spanner check before looking much further, if one thing is loose, you can only begin t imagine what a previous owner/mechanic has also forgotten to torque up.

[Retroanaconda]

That trailing arm bush loose loose to me. The rust is a tell-tale sign of things moving. Is the big nut on the end tight? If so then the bush is worn.

A-frame ball joint on top of rear axle is another favourite for a clunk.

[Snagger]

Yep, that suspension bush is loose.  It doesn’t look distorted, so is probably just in need of tightening rather than replacing.

The wheel rotation play doesn’t look bad, but it it is more than I’d expect.  Rotate the wheel back and forth and look for play between the shaft protruding from the circlip and the star shaped flange behind the circlip - if there is any slack there, then the flanges are worn (the shafts are harder, so their splines maybe ok, but you won’t know until the flanges are separated from the shafts).

[Landy7]

I think it won't be a bad idea to just replace the bushes. I've read good and bad stories about polybushes and most people tend to stay with OEM. This kit should do I guess? -> https://www.paddockspares.com/defsusrroe-rear-oe-bush-kit.html

Can you replace these bushes with a hammer or do you need special tools like a press?

I will replace the A frame ball joint as well. To make it an easier job, I'm leaning towards a full kit instead of only the joint.

Britpart -> https://www.paddockspares.com/fulcrum-bracket.html

or

Terrafirma -> http://www.terrafirma4x4store.co.uk/TF1129_A_FRAME_BALL_JOINT

?

[Snagger]

Paddock spares sell Britpart carp.  Steer well clear of that brand.  Even if you order genuine, they’ll often send you Britpart.  Same with Craddock.

 

I strongly recommend Dunsfold Land Rover.

[Landy7]

I ordered some OEM bushes for the trailing arms, they need to be replaced. Waiting for those parts, I checked what has been advised here, the half shafts..

I jacked up the rear axle, put it in first gear, no hand brake and there is about 1/8 rotational play on the rear prop shaft. After some searching, looks like I'm not the only one with 1/8 rotational play and it should be OK (although I think it's too much).

I drained the rear diff, oil level was good (thank god) and removed the flange and half shaft on one side, same side as the picture above and .. they look good, could be brand new! Dammit! Could it be diff or transfer box? I went on removing the flange and half shaft on the other side and boom, that looks bad, almost razor blades!

So yeah, that's got to be replaced. Looks like someone replaced one side and then stopped 😮

What's the general opinion on those half shafts with integral flanges? I can't see any downsides? It should stop the wear for good? Part number is LR072976 but that's for the 2016 Defender but I guess backwards compatible with 2008 puma?

Edited August 31, 2019 by Koen110

[Snagger]

I’m not sure they made 24 spline shafts with integrated flanges, but if they did, then that would be a better option.  Those shafts are very worn - I bet the flanges were already replaced once or they’d have no splines at all, being softer.

[cackshifter]

I think, just think mind,300 TDI disco ones might fit. No doubt an adult will advise.

[Mo Murphy]

Yup disco one piece half shafts will fit 👍

Mo

[Snagger]

Are Discovery rear shafts strong enough for a 110?  Fine for 90 rear axle and standard Rover diff, but I don’t know if they’re much good for a 110.  Nige (Hybrid Fom Hell) would be the one to ask, or Dave or Ian Ashcroft, who sometimes visit the forum.

[Landy7]

Installed these nice one piece half shafts today, they are the ones that LR supplied from 2016, backwards compatible. Did a small drive, big clunk in the back is gone! Still not 100% smooth but need to replace the trailing arm bushes because they are shot and hey, it’s Defender, not a Range Rover!

[Snagger]

Backwards compatible to when?  If they fit the older Salisbury of the 200Tdi and earlier, then I might go for a set in the future.  How much did they cost?

 

[Landy7]

Part number and price (not sure until when they are backwards compatible but just right for my puma):

https://www.lrdirect.com/LR072977-Shaft-Rear-Axle-Outer-Stub/?keep_https=yes
https://www.lrdirect.com/LR072976-Shaft-Rear-Axle-Outer-Stub/?keep_https=yes

So, like I said, big clunk gone but still not that smooth. Changed the trailing arm large bushes last week, again a bit smoother, but not 100% there! This week I bit the bullet and changed the a frame ball joint, altough the rubber cap was not damaged at all and the balljoint looked in good shape. Went for a test drive and ... finish line, clunk is completely gone and acceleration is smooth.

So in the end, it was a bit of everything, but altough your a frame ball joint looks in good shape, it might be a good idea to replace it, it will also come out easier if you don't wait too long..

[Maverik]

In my opinion I've always found it difficult to "test" a rear a frame ball joint, i think the standard preload in them is so high unless you have the weight of the whole truck behind it they dont tend to budge under any type of pry bar persuasion.

Glad you've got to the bottom of the issue though and update your thread with a solution 👍 top man.