Stupid Lorry Driver Might Have Damaged My ENGINE!!

[skirky dave]

Hi again everyone,

Sorry not been here  for a while, ( family problems ).

So, where to begin. .....Last Friday 8th Nov, late afternoon. Here in Sheffield the floods came big time.

One of my neighbours  came knocking on my door and asked me if i could help her daughter and little boy that was stuck in the car due to the flooding. She had been stuck for almost 3 hours and was beside herself with worry.   I drove down to where she was ( 1 1/2 hours to get to her, and only 2 miles away !!)  fortunately the flooded water was 3 inches below her exhaust pipe. However...the water depth i would have to pull her through, further on  was 18 -20 inch. Turned off her engine and pulled her through, no problem, and got her home safe. 

There must have been a further 40 cars in the same predicament, so i went back to help.

By the time i had reached the stranded vehicles. the water had risen considerably. More motors pulled through and again no problems.

UNTIL...I started my way back home.   Their was a stretch of water that was now 20-25 inches deep and the Police had closed the road from the direction i was heading,... and from behind me.

Still no problem as long as i created a bow wave at 5 mph.

That's when the driver of an articulated lorry,  i shall call him   (  RICHARD THE HEAD )  decided to plow straight through the police road block sign, and, must have decided to create a new world record for creating  the largest bow wave , or ( Wall Of Water) i have ever seen. It was almost like being sat in front of a dam wall as it gives way.

I FLASHED my lights at him, constantly,  waved my arm up and down out of the window to try in my attempt to get him to slow down but ....NO.

He drove past at considerable speed and the entire landy 2.5 Diesel got covered.

My heart sank as my engine DIED.

Some water must have been sucked up into the air filter. I was dead in the water and it was lashing it down with rain with all my tools at home. 

So now what ?  i thought.

I gave it 10 minutes and tried starting the engine again, ...( I know guys...before you say it,....WRONG THING TO DO !!.) but i was clean out of options.

Anyway....she fired up. She pluthered large amounts of grey white bluish smoke from the exhaust but after a short distance .1/4 mile, she cleared up, but sounded a little lumpy. with what can only be described as a ting ting ting noise, but clear exhaust.

Yesterday i dropped the oil and filter and replaced with fresh oil 20/50 along with oil filter. Removed air filter K/N, and again replaced with clean spare filter.

Started her up with no problem apart from....pluthers of white grey blue smoke which covered the street.  However... i drove her around the block and again it cleared but sounded rough. 

Still pulled very well. just rough with the tinging noise as described above and a bit knocky.

So i then removed the cover and checked the tappet clearances to see if a pushrod might be bent, but no, all good their also.

So....my problems are,....Engine starts but covers street in fumes as described, but clears after short run....  Engine temp normal. No coolant loss. NO water in Diesel filter, i checked and replaced that also.

Any suggestions guys as to what it could be.

All help much appreciated

Cheers 

Dave.

 

 

[steve b]

If the air filter was soaked then it almost certainly pulled liquid water into the engine , even a very small amount will be enough to bend a rod causing exactly those symptoms . To narrow down which one crack the injectors one at a time to see which one stops the smoke and has the least effect on the rough running , sorry to bring only bad news . You didn't get any details on the lorry ? Would the police be aware of him driving through the closed road sign ?

Steve b

[Maverik]

So looking at the events, water soaked air filter - might have ingested some water.

Only experience I've had with water and engines was with a Tdci puma, glow plugs where taken out engine turned over to eject water, then start her up and let run until the white smoke stopped coming out of it. Always been a little smokey ever since.

Have you checked all the breathers are dry too, not sure on the likely hood of water getting into them.

So if water did get into the bores you'd likely potentially see damage to push rods (which you've checked) - potentially damage to your rocker shaft? piston ring damage, piston damage.

Sounds like some pretty deepish water, do you have wadeing plugs fitted? could you have jumped a tooth on your timing belt?

[skirky dave]

Hi Maverik,

The only breather on my engine, ( started life as a Sherpa 15 j but then made a few changes to bring it up to speck as 12J ENGINE) with the exception of the round pan air filter was has remained in situ, the only other breather is from Rocker cover to air filter. That was also wet.

As for the pushrods,... i only checked them by using the feeler gauges to re check tappet clearance, which were all spot on. I'm guessing that, had their been a problem with the pushrods then the tappets would have been out , ie, a substantial gap. Am i correct in my thinking of that ???.

Good question regarding the wading plug,  you mean the one for the timing case. Mmmm don't think that was in position. 

Cheers mate for the advice, appreciate it.

Dave.

[skirky dave]

steve b, high again mate, hope your well.

Do you mean loosen one of the injectors , meaning both 13mm nuts or take one out completely.

Could the pushrods still give the correct tappet clearance if one was slightly bent ??

Steve, i don't look at it as bad news, just help towards eliminating the problem,  but once iv'e found it...hey ho.

The Police were nowhere to be seen. signs up and gone. At least not on that stretch of road. I had heard the Police were further down the road. 1/4 to 1/2 a mile dealing with other drivers in deeper water and preventing motorist from coming that way from the motorway area. Just my luck really.

[skirky dave]

Also , no details of lorry, it was throwing it down with rain, a torrential downpour and the lorry was traveling at a stupid rate of knots, ridiculous for the conditions. So much for highly trained HGV Drivers.......NOT!!!.

[lo-fi]

Whip the sump off, check the rods. It's quite possible for an engine to run with bent but not broken rods. As it looks like the valve train is OK (though checking the lifters might be wise), the ticking could be broken rings which could also account for the smoke. Certain head gasket failures can cause ticking sounds and smoke too. 

Boo to the lorry driver! A good advert for  having a dash cam

[steve b]

I'm ok ta Dave - got a workshop full of series LR work at the moment

Just loosen the pipe nut at the injector , have a rag to hand to put round / under it to catch diesel coming out .

Of course taking the head off and checking TDC height of each piston will confirm a bent rod . To get it out it's engine out and crank out , when straight they will come out the top but even a small bend will stop it - the big-end is almost as big as the bore .

cheers

Steve b

 

[skirky dave]

steve b / lo- fi

God i wish you two wasn't based down south !!!! . I have thought about taking the head off,and turning the crank round by hand to see if each piston comes up to the same level.This would indicate if one of the con rods was bent...yes ???  And also whilst the head is off, i could then check 1. The top of the Pistons. 2 remove and check each Push Rod. 3 The Head gasket. AND As  lo-fI  suggests, the Lifters..

I have NEVER done the bottom end before, IE Removing Pistons, rings. Bearings, Honing out Cylinder Heads, etc etc. An old mate of mine did his own Honing Out with something that he bought off Ebay which resembled , what can only be described as Haemorrhoids on a stick. he messed things up if i recall, and his engine never ran the same again,

so with that in mind guys, it might have to go to Sheffield Engine Services, if things don't look good  God more expense.

I don't have the luxury of a garage , it's all outdoors on the concrete

And guess what..................it's raining.....AGAIN.

[skirky dave]

Just remembered something, .. the last time i had the Head off, was the other year or so ago and one of the Hot Spots was cracked. i ordered one from Turner Engineering. Quite expensive if i recall but the broken one made a similar noise with the ting ting ting.  Oh here we go again !!!! ....Me thinks.

[steve b]

The hotspot could well have cracked when hit by the cold water . Do the injector test first , then pull the head - the one that's potentially got the bent rod will probably be clean ( steam-cleaned by the water) .

It's only nuts and bolts if you can get the engine under cover to work on and there is plenty of experience on here to take you through it .

keep us posted - someone may even have a spare con-rod under a bench .

cheers

Steve  b

[skirky dave]

steve b.

Many thanks to you, and all for your advice, i shall try the injector test first. as you suggest.

Cheers 

Dave.

[skirky dave]

steve b and lo-fi,

Right, first of all , last night i started up the motor with plumes of bluish smoke  again and took it round the block until it warmed up and cleared, I then cracked the first injector ( nearest the front of engine ) and it wanted to stall, so moved onto the rest with the same result. I also noticed this morning the the engine coolant was well below the radiator fins, so i must have been mistaken before when i didn't think there was a problem with the coolant level !!!.  As an experiment, i filled a 1 litre, measuring jug with water to determine how much had been lost, (  Answer  = 700 mls  or 3/4 litre.      So now i'm thinking,...Head gasket gone.

Next train of thought is ( 1 ) Remove Rocker Shaft and inspect Push rods on flat surface to see if their true,   ( 2 ) Remove Cylinder Head and check Head Gasket, followed by Hot Spots for cracking, then  ( 3 ) Turn Crank by hand to see if ALL Pistons rise to the same point within the bore. If they don't and one is lower, then this would give me a correct assumption that a Con Rod is in fact bent......( Bad news and engine out ££££ ) ,  Hoping the Con Rods are ok, then...  ( 4 ) Clean all Pistons with Paraffin and check for cracks.   Would this the correct procedure ??.

Oh forgot to mention...sound like there's a miss fire

Anything else you could give me advice with

Cheers for your help

Dave.

[steve b]

In light of the lost coolant it does sound like a failed HG so the head needs to come off anyway . Your plans sound good to me and will give you a clear answer , your luck may be on the turn

cheers

Steve b

[lo-fi]

Agreed, only sane way forward is head off at this point - you'll be able to inspect everything you need to look at. Fingers crossed the gasket gave way before a rod, piston ring or piston. 

[skirky dave]

 Hi guys,

Yes lets hope so,. I'm also considering  taking the whole front off, ie slam panel,  grill ,  water pump,  etc and removing the waterproof timing cover to inspect the timing belt seeing as i didn't put the wading plug in situ.  I may just ponder on that for a while while checking things over.   If their is further damage other than the Head Gasket and the head DOES have to come off, then i shall certainly go the whole hogg with it, Oh well ......fingers crossed eh.    Now i've got to look for someone who sells a decent head gasket set at a reasonable cost and one that doesn't come with any blue & white packaging.  Just a question guys, does the 2.5 n/a Head gasket kit use the same as the series 2.25 diesel. If so,...i may get hold of the Elring kit if i can find one.

Cheers again guys

Dave.

 

 

 

[Bowie69]

Go to Turners for gaskets and any other engine parts, hardly worth going anywhere else.

[skirky dave]

Bowie69,

Thanks for the heads up. It never occurred to me that Turners  would do Head Gasket Kits. 

Cheers Mate

Dave

 

[Snagger]

I’m sorry to hear this after all the effort you went to in getting that engine right before.  On the plus side, at least you know how to do much of it now.

As the others said, Turners will provide what you need, and I have found Frida is generous with free advice when needed, too.  I hope it turns out to be something cheap and easy, like push rods or cam followers.

[skirky dave]

Snagger...Nick,

Nice to hear from you again mate, hope your ok. Mmm things went a little pear shaped over here last week. The rain was horrendous, it just never stopped. Parts of Doncaster are still badly affected..

 I did learn a lot from you , Les . etc from the last time i rebuilt the front of the engine so i'm fairly confident about that aspect of things. However, having said that, i've never had to do, or been faced with this scenario before. I've seen youtube videos of people honing out the bores and replacing piston rings but, i remember an old mate of mine who did it and messed things up with his. IF the engine does has to come out, then, i shall probably bite the bullet and get Sheffield Engine Services to hone it out, replace things etc. More expense i know but at least it should be done correctly. Anyway .....let's hope it doesn't come to that. I may be lucky, taps on wood !!

Have you seen this problem before Nick ??

Dave.

[secondjeremy]

An Elring gasket will be the same whoever you buy it from.  The 2.25 diesel one seems to have multiple applications - and its worth looking carefully at the torque figures as set out by Elring - which I think you'll find are tighter than Rover's

[Snagger]

All well here, thanks, Dave, though we did have some significant floods too the other day - main roads were up to 18” under water, underpasses filled completely and some of the malls flooded, which ended up on social media despite laws about sharing stuff like that here!

I’ve not had an engine with water ingestion, Dave, but have seen other stripped engines that did.  Those which only suffered a little had damaged push rods or valves, and I’ve seen a few bent conrods.  The problem is different from mis-timing, where the valves and pistons contact each other and bend hip the push rods and, in worse cases, crack the rockers or brass cam follower slides.  In the case of water ingestion, the valves will be closed normally, so valve-piston contact is unlikely and those valve operating parts should be unaffected.  What is an issue is that the piston was trying to compress water in the bore, which it can’t, and something has to give.  It could be the head gasket, but damage to the pistons or their rods are likely.  There is just no way of knowing until it’s stripped.

There is a chance of head or block cracking, but I think that quite likely.  Given your symptoms, I’m hoping it’s just the head gasket - I think any problem with pistons or rods would result in continuous rough running and smoke, not just on start up.  You’ll have to remove the pistons for inspection, checking the bores for scoring and cracking too, but that’s only a step to two more than removing the head anyway.  I’d get the rods checked by an engineering shop - you can’t check them well without decent kit.  I’ll keep my fingers crossed for you.

[skirky dave]

secondjeremy,

Hi again , nice to hear from you again and hope your well. Thanks for the heads up regarding the Elring H/Gasket Torque Figures.  Interesting that !.   I shall look that up if that's the make i do go for.

Snagger ---Nick, Right ok, so if i can read between the lines of what your saying, is their anyway of simply looking at the valves for damage just by flipping the cylinder head...by looking at the valve face, ...in the same way i would visually look at the hot spots for cracks OR could it be the valve face could look perfect but the rod of the valve could infact be bent , as the valve is held under pressure and simply held in place by it's collets  ??.

In your 3rd paragraph Nick,

5 hours ago, Snagger said:

There is a chance of head or block cracking, but I think that quite likely

I;m kind of hoping that was a typing error , or do you in fact mean . there's a very real chance that the Head or Block may have sustained catastrophic damage ??.. If , in fact  that  turned out to be the case, then i would simply look for another engine instead of messing about. That decision would also open up a further can of worms, in that, it wasn't all that long ago that a 2.5 N/A could be picked up for the £100 = 200 pound mark and the cost of a used 200TDI was really expensive. and i think the main factor of that was,because a 200 TDI  was easier to fit than the 300. Virtually drops straight in by all accounts.  However, used 200 TDI's are very thin on the ground now. leaving plenty of 300's around,  A look on Ebay sees 2.5 N/A  Diesels fetching £600+.  Of course there's also the ( Was taken out running perfect at the time,  and only taken out for a blah blah blah conversion ). Only to find the engine requires a complete strip down and £££££ on top of the £600+ purchase price. So obviously not knowing the service history leaves us with a very daunting decision  to make.

I can only HOPE .  that mine has only suffered minor damage. We shall see.

Cheers again guys

Dave.

 

 

[skirky dave]

I found a video on youtube which i shall start a NEW topic with. This is for all of us who are not skilled machanics .....like myself.  The video is very interesting to say the least!!!!!. As my engine sounded just like this before the damage occured.  For anyone with the same  engine symptoms, it's quite an eye opener , Under Video Must See.

[Snagger]

Sorry about that, Dave - it was indeed a mistype; I’m using an iPad from work and I find onscreen typing far more difficult and the iPad for more aggressive in its changes to what I write if I make a mistake.  Yes, I think a cracked head or block are very unlikely.

I also think that valve damage is unlikely, and almost impossible if the push rods are straight.  Hot spot damage is quite possible, but that wouldn’t explain the change in smoke after the start and initial run.  Nor would rings or pistons, really - they’d let oil escape the bores while the engine was off, not cause it to enter and then be burnt off.  I suspect the head gasket.  I hope I’m right,

As for Tdi retrofits, go for a good 300.  You can use the flywheel housing from your current engine to mate it to the gear box, and the wiring is dead easy (it’s the same, you just need to fit a SIII temperature sender like you did to the 15j, and may be able to use your current one).  The main work is in fitting the engine mounts.  I think the 300 still has the old style bolt holes near the front left corner, so you could mount the engine and transmission on three mounts while you sort the position of the new right side mount, and with Thad done, remove the left mount to sort the new type on that side to allow for the exhaust.  Then it’s just plumbing up the fuel, coolant, air and oil cooler lines.  There are plenty of examples to see how others routed the pipes or mounted the rad and intercooler, so that saves a lot of head scratching.  Then you have the same performance as the 200, but with a smoother, quieter engine and easier sourcing of both engine and spares.  
 

After that, fit a snorkel if you insist on playing the Good Samaritan, and make sure the entire system is well sealed!