Stupid Lorry Driver Might Have Damaged My ENGINE!!

[Anderzander]

Might be worth a look if your local and quick?  https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.co.uk%2Fulk%2Fitm%2F184032226541

whilst this one is fair money and seems honest within good feedback for the seller too.

https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.co.uk%2Fulk%2Fitm%2F123916278925

 

 

[Snagger]

Those are both Discovery units.  That has pros and cons.  The 12J engine mount brackets will bolt straight to the block, so mounting is easy.  You can drill clearance holes in your bell housing to use socket screws for the four bolts that normally go through the bottom of the LT77 bell housing and flywheel housing into the ladder plate below the block (shown on my blog) and tap the blind stud holes in the flywheel housing to move the studs to fit the SIII bell housing (they line up nicely).

 The problem is the engine accessories.  If you have an 88”, you can “clock” the turbo compressor housing to clear the chassis (the waste gate actuator mounting bolt holes need red rolling and tapping).  The PAS pump and alternator get in the way of the air plumbing, but if needed, the PAS pump can be removed outright and the alternator mounted using the SIII or 12J bracket and some washers or the Ali block Gazzar used recently (stories of Oakie) to delete the big aluminium cradle.  All relatively straight forward.

[Anderzander]

I put one in my 80, albeit with a 300 turbo and manifold. It’s a great engine.

[skirky dave]

Morning Nick,

Thanks for the heads up on that. Appreciate it. It's still raining here, so the tools are on standby, as it were, and attempting to squirrel away spare money  ( Christmas coming thick and fast )., to get this job done and out of the way.  ...( Until the next one, it is a Landy afterall !!! ).   As for playing the good samaritan , you can rest assured that, that was never my intention. I was quite happy at the time watching a dvd , with a cup of tea, and my feet up  in front of the fire, whilst it lashed it down outside and totally oblivious to what was happening in Sheffield. However. by the time i had reached her car,  the streets were full of people asking for help,... It was chaos.  I never fitted a snorkel because i always thought it would spoil the aesthetics of the vehicle.  Obviously now,..it would have been a good idea, but that;s hindsight for you. In fact..if it hadn't been for the stupidity of the lorry driver, the landy would still be ok. Oh well..lesson learned.

Cheers Nick.

 

 

 

[skirky dave]

 Anderzander

Cheers for that. I happen to be in a very daunting position with fitting the 200TDI to the series 2A box. I read an article written by Glencoyne Engineering a long time ago that stated the fitting of an engine with that much torque can and does destroy gearboxes that were designed 50 + years ago. Which is why they strongly advise to remove the Turbo, thus turning it into a 200DI.  i am  aware that yourself. Snagger-Nick and many others have performed this conversion with no problems, thus far, and i hope things remain that way, i really do. Which is really dependent  on the current state of the gearbox that the engine is fitted to. My question to that , is,..How do you know if it's in perfect fettle. Unless you are gifted with a superb mechanical knowledge as to the workings of the said gearboxes, their faults and the ability to repair them in house. with all the tools, Lifting equipment, a garage etc etc and to have a pretty healthy bank ballance, to boot  ( which i don't ) then, your putting a lot of faith into a project that could cause more financial problems in the long run. 

I have known a couple of the lads around here who have completed the conversion but at least 2 maybe 3 of them have wrecked the gearbox on a couple of occasions,  because they gave it a few too many beans ,which to be honest, doesn't fill me with much confidence, and iv'e had enough bad luck lately to be honest.

  On the other hand,..If i had that amount of money to do the conversion properly, i would leave the engine with the Turbo as fitted / designed to be used, and acquire maybe the R380 gearbox,  which we all know can handle the Torque with ease and also find a way of leaving the Red / Yellow leavers in place. I;m sure someone has already done this. So... where does this leave me ??, An engine that may need a bit of a strip down and hopefully not a lot of pennies, or an engine that could cost 2-300 pound to put right  but without all the hassle of cutting things up / replacing other parts etc because their already there, and knowing i don't have the power of a 200TDI and except it for what it is... a  slower 2.5 N/A diesel.

Many thanks Anderzander for going to the trouble of putting up the advert for my attention, very good of you, but at the moment i have to see what's going on with my engine....that's once the rain stops, for gods sake.

All the best mate

Dave

[steve b]

You are absolutely right Dave , find out where you are and then decide . The long term service of the gearbox is an open ended question but there is no doubt that a Tdi will work it harder .

Keep us posted .

cheers

Steve b

[Snagger]

Dave, the weak point of the SII and SIII is indeed the gear box, but if it’s driven reasonably, it copes.  I have seen several people regularly smash those transmissions behind 2.25s because they have leaden feet.  What kills the transmission from a vehicle spec stance is fitting the Tdi to the standard transmission and then adding both 3.54 diffs and an overdrive - the engine doubles the input torque, and the transmission can cope with that if the wheels and diffs are standard, but add the 3.54 diffs and the resistance to the engine increases.  Imagine setting off in low gear on a mountain bike - no matter how strong your legs, you’ll never snap the chain because your legs can’t keep up with the acceleration of the rear wheel.  Now look at the velodrome pursuit riders, who are immensely strong and have fixed gears at very high ratios - they snap chains frequently because the gearing makes the wheel too resistant to accelerate fast.

But you can always fit the LT77 if you wish.  It’s quieter and a lot stronger, and gives five gears.  You can mate it to the series transfer box with an adapter, which costs a few hundred pounds when Ashcroft sell them, or you could go the whole hog and fit the LT230 and 3.54 diffs like Ed Parrot and a few others have.  Ed and and one of the others (apologies to them - I forgot who) modified the selectors to retain the Series levers and knobs.  That’d give decent gearing, quieter transmission and would end your concerns about weakness.  But you’d need the short bell housing/long stick version in either scenario (or the modified R380 equivalent, which is costly).  With the Series transfer box, the existing axles are fine.  With an LT230, you’d need taller diffs (even the Discovery version would leave you slow and overrevving).  The LT230 fit would also be permanent 4wd, which would cause some steering kick with steering inputs because of the swivels having UJs instead of CV joints (you can try that out with 4wd engaged on road and turn relatively tightly a short distance).  It adds up, but then a Tdi on the standard transmission really needs an overdrive for cruising.  I don’t like the idea of High Ratio Transfer Cases or 3.54 diffs, even on their own, as they up all the gears and create that raised resistance, while an overdrive can be used as a fifth gear and leave 1,2 and 3 unaffected.  But I think I killed my 3rd gear by driving it in 3rd with the overdrive engaged with 3.54s, and I think Ed concluded that was what did his too, with an identical failure.

[skirky dave]

steve b  +  Nick,

Thank you both very much for your input regarding this matter. It settles my mind somewhat,

You see, i hate to sound a party pooper when it comes to these sort of things, As you have put things very well Nick,   ( although i have to be honest and say that, that went a little over my head, but a good description regarding the mountain bike / velodrome scenario )   it simply describes the very fact that, you need to have a very comprehensive grasp regarding the conversion and the pitfalls that could be laying in wait , especially for the ( novice mechanics ) out there ... i include myself in that bracket.

One of the lads ended up buying an older 90 with  TDI conversion ...and then......PUT THE SERIES 3 FRONT ON !!!  He said it looks to the unknowing eye, like a series 3 but in reality it's a 90 and saved me loads of money.  Each to their own i suppose. even though he did make a bit of a hash of it!!.  Well to be honest, a HUGE hash of it.

So just for the time being.... I shall leave the old girl as is, and start mending it , if i can...... AGAIN !!!.

Thanks again steve b and to you Nick, i very much appreciate all your input.

Dave.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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[FridgeFreezer]

As others said, it's people not engines that break gearboxes - my 109 had a 3.9 V8 in front of a Series box + overdrive for years before I rebuilt the whole truck, and when I took it out it went behind another V8 in another Series that got thrashed around for a while longer before the box got noisy... and lord knows what condition the box was in when I bought the truck originally!

In your situation I'd start with the cheap and easy options - find out what's wrong and if you can fix (or straight up replace) your current engine that's likely way cheaper & less effort even if it costs you more pennies than a crusty old TDi lump might, the conversion work is not trivial and you're losing originality.

A 2.5NA isn't going to set the world on fire but in good fettle they work absolutely fine and are pretty bulletproof and simple.

[Bowie69]

Not to mention a whole lot quieter! 

[Anderzander]

Loads of good advice here - and definitely one step at a time. I put the 200 links up just so that you wouldn’t rule them out early on - they can still be found for reasonable money - and if you did find significant damage in yours it’s worth knowing they’re an option.

Good luck ! 

 

[Snagger]

Yep, fixing the existing engine will likely be cheaper than buying a Tdi, sorting that out (I don’t believe in blindly fitting engines from scrappers and hoping for the best), getting all the bits to fit and run it, then altering the transmission.  It’s certainly a lot easier to fix what’s there rather than do modifications as you simply need to find the broken bits and replace with new.

As Dave said, the 12J (and equivalents) are a good deal quieter and smoother than the Tdis, so the cab is much more civilised, and they pull better than Tdis at low revs off road, where the turbo is just a breathing restriction until it spins up.  The 12J is a much maligned engine, but it suits Series gearing well and is normally a robust and dependable lump with as many advantages as disadvantages as the Tdi.

I think you’re sensible to investigate the repair option first.  But don’t worry unduly about Tdi torque killing transmissions if you ultimately lean that way.  Just go for overdrive or HRTC, and not the diffs (or limit a diff change to 4.1:1 if you have overdrive, not HRTC, and only use the overdrive in 4th or low range).

[Anderzander]

16 hours ago, Snagger said:

Dave, the weak point of the SII and SIII is indeed the gear box, but if it’s driven reasonably, it copes.  I have seen several people regularly smash those transmissions behind 2.25s because they have leaden feet.  What kills the transmission from a vehicle spec stance is fitting the Tdi to the standard transmission and then adding both 3.54 diffs and an overdrive - the engine doubles the input torque, and the transmission can cope with that if the wheels and diffs are standard, but add the 3.54 diffs and the resistance to the engine increases.  Imagine setting off in low gear on a mountain bike - no matter how strong your legs, you’ll never snap the chain because your legs can’t keep up with the acceleration of the rear wheel.  Now look at the velodrome pursuit riders, who are immensely strong and have fixed gears at very high ratios - they snap chains frequently because the gearing makes the wheel too resistant to accelerate fast.

But you can always fit the LT77 if you wish.  It’s quieter and a lot stronger, and gives five gears.  You can mate it to the series transfer box with an adapter, which costs a few hundred pounds when Ashcroft sell them, or you could go the whole hog and fit the LT230 and 3.54 diffs like Ed Parrot and a few others have.  Ed and and one of the others (apologies to them - I forgot who) modified the selectors to retain the Series levers and knobs.  That’d give decent gearing, quieter transmission and would end your concerns about weakness.  But you’d need the short bell housing/long stick version in either scenario (or the modified R380 equivalent, which is costly).  With the Series transfer box, the existing axles are fine.  With an LT230, you’d need taller diffs (even the Discovery version would leave you slow and overrevving).  The LT230 fit would also be permanent 4wd, which would cause some steering kick with steering inputs because of the swivels having UJs instead of CV joints (you can try that out with 4wd engaged on road and turn relatively tightly a short distance).  It adds up, but then a Tdi on the standard transmission really needs an overdrive for cruising.  I don’t like the idea of High Ratio Transfer Cases or 3.54 diffs, even on their own, as they up all the gears and create that raised resistance, while an overdrive can be used as a fifth gear and leave 1,2 and 3 unaffected.  But I think I killed my 3rd gear by driving it in 3rd with the overdrive engaged with 3.54s, and I think Ed concluded that was what did his too, with an identical failure.

Not to digress too much from Dave’s thread - but that’s interesting. My 80 has 4.3 diffs, series gearboxes, 6.5 instead of 6.00 tyres, and a tdi - and it feels lovely. You can drive it and build the torque really smoothly - It just needs a 5th gear. I tried it with a 3.54 diff and it was awful, really awful. Besides making the 4 speed box feel like a really inflexible 3 speed box with overdrive  - it (what I called) lugged in the gears, made me cringe.

[Snagger]

Yep, Cornish Rattler just came to the same conclusion with his Tdi 88 restoration - he tried 3.54s and didn’t like them either, and has already swapped the rear diff back to 4.71.  Pretty sure he has overdrive or HRTC (can’t mix both).   Standard transmission behind a Tdi is undergeared for the motorway, but is otherwise fine.  Not so, with 3.54s.  I think your smaller tyres are why 4.3 works so well.  I plan on the 4.1 diffs and using OD very carefully (4th and low range only, as above), because standard with OD is just a bit too low on the motorway, but 4.1 with OD disengaged should be fine around town - it’s about half way between 4.7 and 3.54, after all. The combination works out about the same as a stock Defender in 5th.  I think it’ll drive well and that the gear box will cope, under the strict OD rules, but only time will tell.

[Arjan]

Having a look at the engine in depth before starting considering alternative engines looks to me a sensible route..

Open the engine, if need be, and have a look.

I replaced some pushrods over the years and engine damage was minimal so let's be positive.

 

Apart from the handbrake, I have the 200 Tdi in the Series almost finished - need to finish some minor body mods - and the big question for me will be if the present standard diffs / gearbox ratio's will work for me. I am not too worried about the gearbox as it is a fully rebuild one and I used the well know Mazda with different gearboxes, abused the hell out of them and never broke them..

However, having in the workshop a rebuild 3.54 diff with a airlocker is tempting...

But we'll see - once the handbrake is sorted and the last few other bits are done, I need to get an CT (French MOT) and drive the thing.

 

 

[Snagger]

2 hours ago, Arjan said:

Having a look at the engine in depth before starting considering alternative engines looks to me a sensible route..

Open the engine, if need be, and have a look.

I replaced some pushrods over the years and engine damage was minimal so let's be positive.

 

Apart from the handbrake, I have the 200 Tdi in the Series almost finished - need to finish some minor body mods - and the big question for me will be if the present standard diffs / gearbox ratio's will work for me. I am not too worried about the gearbox as it is a fully rebuild one and I used the well know Mazda with different gearboxes, abused the hell out of them and never broke them..

However, having in the workshop a rebuild 3.54 diff with a airlocker is tempting...

But we'll see - once the handbrake is sorted and the last few other bits are done, I need to get an CT (French MOT) and drive the thing.

 

 

Fit the locker with the 4.71 gears and a spacer ring. 😉

[skirky dave]

Hi guys,

Just having a quiet weekend with my other half  ( her birthday ) in Doncaster, (  NOT the flooded part ) and hoping to investigate this engine this week. IF, it stops raining !!!.

Sue would like to say thanks!!  for the interest and the input you have shared regarding the engine..Which i find really funny as she doesn't understand a thing about this, but listens.!!! She's a classically trained  musician  (cellist ) and teacher and i don't understand music, it's just lines, dots and scrolls to me. But each to their own i suppose.

As for the Overdrive, and diffs,, Well mine is an 88 2A with standard diffs and 2A gearbox. I can use the Overdrive as a splitter in all gears and is faultless. A great bit of kit when pulling a trailer up hill when 3rd gear is too low and 2nd is too high, drop it into 2nd and Overdrive and she pulls lovely...no problem.   It's my understanding  ( for what that's worth )...That when the Range Rover first came out, they added an Overdrive later...but,  should only be used in 4th gear only, otherwise it would break under the torque of the engine, rendering the gear useless as a splitter. But with 2.25 petrol / Diesel/...  2.5 petrol / Diesel  there's alot more uses as a splitter.   Am i right in this ??.

The reason for my assumption, is,..I have never seen any warnings regarding the use of the Overdrive when in a series vehicle with smaller less torqued engines.

I would have thought using an overdrive with the 200 / 300 TDI's may cause a problem as a splitter gear.   Ooo lots to ponder. Off to her Mum's for lunch now, and look forward to your thoughts on this when we get back.

Cheers again guys

Dave.

[FridgeFreezer]

The Fairey overdrives were never very strong (and always whine), although a Series 4-pot has a fair bit less grunt than a V8 Range Rover so you'll probably get away with it. The modern Roamerdrives are much stronger and can be used in any gear with any engine.

[Snagger]

The Fairey instructions say should only be used in third or fourth in high range, even behind a 2.25.  Low range reduces the strain on the gearbox and overdrive, so it’ll be fine in all gears in low.

As John says, they’re nowhere near as strong as the Roverdrive and they are prone to howling.  They wear the splines on the clutch sleeve ( the bit on the gear box output shaft) and the corresponding splines on its input shaft.  Have a look at the overdrive Gazzar advertised in the sale section for photos of worn splines.  I don’t know how long a good one would last behind a Tdi, but serviced and driven sensibly, used as only a fifth gear, it should be ok.  Roverdrive are having a lot of issues with their cheap bearings and gears failing over the last few years.  My gears are fine, but I had to replace the bearings - a few failed after I had an oil leak, but they were bad to start with (cheap unbranded Chinese muck).

Enjoy your weekend!

[Anderzander]

Dave, Have you seen this?  It’s not far from you :  

 

[skirky dave]

Anderzander,

Once again, many thanks for the heads up mate, I had heard so many conflicting reports regarding the 19J  2.5 Turbo engine. A year or so ago, i was talking to Snagger and Les regarding the conversion ( if you can call it that )  of my 15J Sherpa Engine to make it a 12 J with the waterproof timing belt cover, new timing belt and tensioner, injector pipes, and also fabricating  the drivers side engine mount from scratch etc etc. I was advised to get hold of the parts from a donor  19 J. iI picked one up for , i think £50, and so the conversion began. When i took off the 19 J Cylinder Head,...oh my god,..every piston had a huge crack across them, plus other massive problems, which i wasn't bothered about, as i only needed a few bits. However the general consensus about  the engine was "Leave well alone" as it had a bad reputation, for breaking things.  Having said that, their are a few owners who have never had a problem with them. SO....Make of that what you will.

The world of land rover engines and conversions is a complicated place at times !!.

Fridgefreezer / Nick

Very interesting information, that. i'll  look up more information on that, thanks.

 

Cheers again

Dave.

[Snagger]

If you are considering a Roverdrive now, don’t bother.  Britannica Restorations (Mike) did a video where he installed and tested one for a customer (a white 90), and a few respondents claimed problems with theirs having failed bearings and gears.  Mark Saville in LRO has one on his SI, and it has been rebuilt three times in 15,000 miles because of failed gears and bearings (he still rates it as a good buy at £1800 - that’s the power of working for a magazine that sells ads to that manufacturer and, of course, Britpart). It’s a real shame, as they started off good, other than the bearings.  Maybe the gear issues are from failed bearings, so replacing them with decent brand bearings immediately would prevent the other issues from ever happening.  I don’t know.  But it means there is no strong, risk free alternative to the Fairey on Series vehicles or the GKN on Defenders (which is a bag of unreliable poo too - look at all the problems Western is having’ despite his immense proficiency and patience).  
 

Behind a 12j, you are certainly better off with the Fairey you currently have.  Shabs sells replacement parts at Syncro Geaboxes (no “h”).  That’d be money wiser spent than buying a Roverdrive, seemingly.  If it ever has problems, I did a rebuild guide on my blog, and it’s not hard to do (Gazzar has persuaded me to do a video when I rebuild the one he advertised, so I may do that over the next year or so when I can afford Shabs’ parts).  But Ashcroft’s HRTC is an option if you ever go for the Tdi (bad idea with the 12j, though).

Post up what you find when you pull the head and pistons out of the engine.  All this chat is kind of like pub talk, with lots of “what ifs”, but the sensible route is likely to keep what you’re running if you’ve been happy with it.

[skirky dave]

Interesting read,  regarding the Fairey overdrive with the series land rover.  I have only used mine ( when needed ) in 2nd and O/D when pulling a trailer up hill , as and when required on the odd occasion with no ill effects. The rest of the time has been 3rd and O/D  and  4th  with O/D , and my unit has been fitted for 20+ years.., with 5/6 oil changes a year. Regarding the Roamedrive ... well i'm pretty shocked to be honest. I thought they were supposed to be the bees knees. 

 Fridgefreezer  do you use one ?, if so have you had any problems ?.

What i don't understand is why can't they just fit forged bearings, to take the pressure, Yes the cost might go up but at least the overdrive would sell. If they keep getting a bad reputation, then,  nobody will want to buy them, Then it's game over. What's the point in going to the expense of buying a brand  spanking new overdrive only to strip out the bearings to replace them from somewhere like Sheffield City Seals and Bearings ( at great cost and time ). Or., maybe it's just a few units with inferior parts fitted, who knows.

Paddocks price £1,119.00   .  That's a lot of money if in 18 months time it packs up !!.

To a certain degree i understand what you mean Nick , regarding the pub talk bit, but ,what with all this  ammunition of information you guys are sending, it has given me a clearer indication of what to look for or suspect , once the head is off etc.

We might be in for a ( small )  break in the weather up here, but then, it's about 9 days of rain ... AGAIN,   SO , i'll do, what i can do, and keep you informed with my findings....

Cheers again guys

Dave

[Peaklander]

Typo Dave. It’s £1,919 at Paddocks! 

[lo-fi]

Roamerdrive got into bed with Britpart. Purveyors of exquisitely dreadful bearings. No doubt pressure to cut cost and corners led to the bearings being an easy target for bringing distributor cost down/profit up. A shame as its technically a much better unit than the Fairey, production issues aside.