Constantly replacing Hub Seals, but why?

[Landrover17H]

I've discs up front so it's less of an issue, yet my 109 rear hub-seals keep leaking and soiling the shoes. This will be the fourth go at this in 3 years. I like to think I've done the obvious:

1) Used decent Corteco seals

2) Put in new 'Lands' Part No. 599698. Mild steel and still look mint

3) Made sure the Salisbury breather is clear.

4) Seals inserted 'flush' to the hub.

 

Short of stainless Part No. 599698 from HNJ, I've done much everything. The seals are never scuffed or torn, but let oil past which finds its way to the linings. Drastic, yet fitting discs to the rear would sort it, because EP90 can't get to the disc/pads if the seal does leak. I can't see what else there is I can do about this. Do they all do this, mine's a daily and I can't get more than 3-4,000 miles without needing another set of shoes.

Anyone?

Edited April 14, 2020 by Landrover17H

[steve b]

Have you tried a new seal unfitted on the stub axle ring ? Do the seals that fail show any evidence of why? I have to ask , just to rule it out , you are fitting the seal the correct way round?

Is the axle breather the brass type with the ball in ? - if so it may be worth converting to a pipe , just to see if it helps.

If everything is correct then the seals should last for a good while , something is definitely  wrong somewhere .

cheers

Steve b

[FridgeFreezer]

That's definitely not right - aside from Steve's suggestions are your wheel bearings OK?

[Jon White]

You aren’t installing the hub seals correctly. They should not be installed flush, they should be 4.8-5.3mm recessed into the housing.

[steve b]

Good point Jon , I missed that

Steve b

[Landrover17H]

I had questioned fitment orientation, I've got seals fitted, such that lip is forced onto 'land' ie: seal fitted spring-side faces towards oil, away from back-plate. Breather is brass, I was able to blow thru' it. Agreed, this can't be right. I'll have another look at breather and seal-fit. So far it's winning, and it's dangerous.

[Landrover17H]

Post X'ed....

9 minutes ago, Jon White said:

You aren’t installing the hub seals correctly. They should not be installed flush, they should be 4.8-5.3mm recessed into the housing.

Well, f**k a duck, that could be it then! THANK YOU.

Edited April 14, 2020 by Landrover17H

[Jon White]

Cough, RTFM it’s written in there! 🤣

[Landrover17H]

No mention of this in my manual, just shown flush. As 109? I'm trying to find where there's a better explanation. I've looked in the past and not found it, which is why I ask. Will try the manuals again. Most are biased to 88.

Edited April 14, 2020 by Landrover17H

[Landrover17H]

I'll keep bashing at this...

[Jon White]

point 16 gives the measurement.

[Landrover17H]

I've looked in every manual, and never seen that before. Not in my S3 version of the Bible, or Haynes, or Autobooks. Without you, I'd never have known. Thank you. We're getting to the bottom of this, I might not even have 109 hubs on there.  If I read this right, there's a difference. I shall keep digging.

Edited April 14, 2020 by Landrover17H

[Jon White]

it’s the same series manual you have got just further on in it. Pages 60-10 and 60-11.

[Jon White]

http://www.retroanaconda.com/landrover/2010/03/series-iii-workshop-manual/

[Landrover17H]

Yet again, I thank you. Looking into this now. Seems S2 is a different animal, so not relevant. I need to check I don't have S2 hubs on there. But I reckon you've got to the root of this.

[Jon White]

Early s2 hubs can easily be identified by the smaller BSF wheel studs. Later ones use the same metric wheel studs as series3 (27mm socket for the wheel nuts), and are to all intents the same as series3 ones. Late series 3 changed slightly as they used the same inner and outer bearing (earlier ones the outer bearing is smaller), but the inner bearing and the seal are both identical.

[Landrover17H]

Thanks, I've been doing homework on this, and it seems late S3 hubs also have a double-lip seal. Appears these seals go on to be found on coilers. 24 Spline (I think) I'd find a set and if they can be made to fit yet these appear to be unobtainium. I'm getting extremely fed-up with this! I'd like to put these in to get the double-lip seal, and have done. Not sure what that extra 4-5mm does, and why it should make a difference, but I'll push the seal in anyway. I'll use an old seal. Here's the 'official tool'.

Edited April 15, 2020 by Landrover17H

[Jon White]

Ah yes sorry - I was slightly wrong. I knew the late ones were different but I incorrectly assumed they were the same bearings.

im aware that the late ones and the coiled ones all use the same seal, and I’ve used the proper tool as a friend has one. 

I always found the leather seals much better on early hubs rather then the modern lipped seals.

[FridgeFreezer]

If you can see a manufacturer's number on the seal or measure it you can buy a double-lipped seal from a bearing supplier like simplybearings.co.uk or bearingboys etc.

There was a cross-reference somewhere (Teriann Wakemann's site?) of LR seals & bearings to generic parts.

[Landrover17H]

Yes, I was thinking just that, a quick look-up for a seal number can't be rocket-science can it?  A double-lip if it doesn't help, can only be a good thing. Miss Teri might cover it...

[Snagger]

I’ve always used the round end of the hub bearing nut box spanner to tap the seals in.  It seems to work well, just be patient and tap lightly until the seal seats as far in as it’ll go.  It typically sits 1-2 mm below the rim of the hub, in my experience.  You’ll feel it when it gets there.

[Gazzar]

Isn't there a part of the hub that acts as a drift? The drive flange, or something?

 

[Anderzander]

Different in the Series 1 manual, there they say to do it flush.

[Landrover17H]

Yes, I did wonder about all this, I'm redoing it 4-5mm in, but not sure I see what difference it'll make. But why  fight it?

[Anderzander]

I don’t know this - but maybe it’s because the early ones had the removable distance pieces - so they will be square all the way to where they meet the back plate on the stub axle. Whereas I think the later ones the distance piece was integral to the stub shaft, and wasn’t able to have it replaced independently, perhaps on those the back edge isn’t square and taper out to the plate??  If it wasn’t square there you wouldn’t want the seal sat right back against the plate, as that would stop it sealing.

Here’s the later one on eBay - and it has a radius where the bearing land transitions into the back plate.

Here is a Series 1 with removable press fit distance piece / bearing land (which is knackered and I will replace) - but you can see it’s square to the back plate with no radius.

I may have just made some of that up - it’s just what it looks like 😊