Oil pressure switch

[Snagger]

5 minutes ago, FridgeFreezer said:

Is it even softer on the transmission? Big lumps of torque rather than a bit of clutch slip?

That low rpm wouldn’t have huge torque, but fair point about the impulses of each cylinder at low rpm, soit’s a fair point you make.  I’m assuming that David is using enough rpm for that not to be a big issue, but certainly below 1000ish, it is.  I’m advocating higher rpm and gentle clutch operation to prevent the low oil pressure already, but this impulse issue is a good consideration on diesels, probably not much of an issue on petrols and especially not V8s

[Mo Murphy]

I have been warned by others in the past that letting a TDI lug at low revs, driving on the torque kills crankshaft bearings. 

I have never experienced this myself as I've never looked at my bearings but others must have experienced it to pass on the warning.

Dave's experience would appear to confirm it.

Mo

[FridgeFreezer]

18 minutes ago, Mo Murphy said:

I have been warned by others in the past that letting a TDI lug at low revs, driving on the torque kills crankshaft bearings.

I'd imagine it's the case with any engine really.

[Sigi_H]

Oil pressure is a reason I didn't think of, but I assumed that it increases quickly even at low rpm. Higher revs are good in most situations

[Nonimouse]

1 hour ago, FridgeFreezer said:

Is it even softer on the transmission? Big lumps of torque rather than a bit of clutch slip?

Good question

I have driven like this for years - and I mean years. First with tractors, then when LR first produced the 2.5 NAD. But that's only with diesels. It a habit formed when driving off tarmac, that lack of rpm allows for maximising traction. Anyone that's ever ploughed heavy ground in a two wheel drive tractor will know where I'm coming from

But thinking it all through, Nick (as so often) is making a good point, spin up that oil pressure, then gentle on the clutch. But only on tarmac... 

 

[Nonimouse]

One big lesson form this is the need for an oil pressure gauge.

Up until this Discovery (no idea why this got put in the Defender section, by the way) the last four 200tdi vehicles (and any other 4x4's in between) had been fitted with oil pressure gauges. I always used to recommend to my build customers, that an oil pressure gauge was fitted. Any article I wrote about vehicle prep suggested the fitting of an OPG above any other gauge.

Five years ago, when I bought the Disco, I bought an oil pressure gauge for it. The never got round to fitting it. The warning light switch operates at under 10 psi. So potential damage has already been done. It looks like I've been lucky, mainly because I use high quality commercial oil and decent filters. Added to which I'm lucky that Covid 19 lock down has given me the time to get things (hopefully) fixed. It's also been an interesting learning curve. I thought I knew the 200tdi well. But this is the first time I've done a bottom end refurb. I'd not want to have done it on the floor, but it would have been doable on big axle stands. It's also useful having 206 litres of engine oil available. And finally the best thing is having a friend who is willing to spare his time, social distance and teach/show/help, share his awesome specialist tools and generally put up with a late middle aged, grumpy and anxious old fart.

1 hour ago, Mo Murphy said:

I have been warned by others in the past that letting a TDI lug at low revs, driving on the torque kills crankshaft bearings. 

I have never experienced this myself as I've never looked at my bearings but others must have experienced it to pass on the warning.

Dave's experience would appear to confirm it.

Mo

Moseph, you remember my white RRC, no doubt. That 200 had 440k on it when I sold it. It's still running. It's had a top end rebuild and servicing. The big difference between it and the Disco is that it rarely towed heavy loads.  The Disco regularly tows all up. ...  So 800kg triaxle and up-to exactly 2.7 tonnes of timber.  It's never towed loads of over 6.5 tonnes ever - not even on a Sunday before church

[Maverik]

8 minutes ago, Nonimouse said:

One big lesson form this is the need for an oil pressure gauge.

Up until this Discovery (no idea why this got put in the Defender section, by the way) the last four 200tdi vehicles (and any other 4x4's in between) had been fitted with oil pressure gauges. I always used to recommend to my build customers, that an oil pressure gauge was fitted. Any article I wrote about vehicle prep suggested the fitting of an OPG above any other gauge.........

I fitted a Madman EMS2 a few years ago and got to say I rather like it, gives all sorts of in drive entertainment, I find I'm driving by it more often than not. Really quite interesting seeing how the engine is responding to any certain driving condition.

[Mo Murphy]

So potentially, driving on the torque with a heavy load behind may have caused it, perhaps then Dave ?

I don't have an OPG but I suppose, in the light of your experience, that I really ought to be thinking about fitting one to my 200.

Mo

[Sigi_H]

Really interesting to see, that water temp became ok, but oil pressure is still high. It also replaces an oil temperature indicator, because the oil pressure only decreases when the temperature is reached. Normally the water is hot, but oil is still too cold

[Nonimouse]

3 hours ago, Mo Murphy said:

So potentially, driving on the torque with a heavy load behind may have caused it, perhaps then Dave ?

I don't have an OPG but I suppose, in the light of your experience, that I really ought to be thinking about fitting one to my 200.

Mo

I'm thinking it might be worthwhile...

Although parts are cheap..  I bought the pump form Turners and the shells etc are all coming from Kings

 

[Nonimouse]

5 hours ago, Snagger said:

That low rpm wouldn’t have huge torque, but fair point about the impulses of each cylinder at low rpm, soit’s a fair point you make.  I’m assuming that David is using enough rpm for that not to be a big issue, but certainly below 1000ish, it is.  I’m advocating higher rpm and gentle clutch operation to prevent the low oil pressure already, but this impulse issue is a good consideration on diesels, probably not much of an issue on petrols and especially not V8s

Nick, on level ground a 200tdi will pull away on 850 rpm tick-over, in high box with a gross train weight of approximately 8.7 tonnes; although it's easier with low box. Obviously on a private road. So bu&&er all oil pressure. I the same conditions Td5 auto just doesn't move, unless you drop it into low box; worthwhile noting that a 300GD with a 3.0 617 Turbo wouldn't do it. Something do with the direct inject methinks

[Nonimouse]

Nick, you mention removal of the washer in the oil thermostat. Do you think this is a worthwhile modification?

[Snagger]

It got me another 5psi or so when warm.  It’s a peculiar thing - some vehicles appear to have two washers, some one, and the manuals don’t show them at all as I recall.  The increase in oil temperature through some of the oil that should be diverted through the oil cooler managing to squeeze past the oil stat was negligible on the gauge, and is measured at the front end of the filter housing just before the oil enters the block, so should be representative enough for my confidence in removing the washer not to be misplaced.

[Snagger]

As for fitting an oil pressure gauge, well, they do make you obsess.  I have been unhappy with my Tdi ever since I built it up and fitted it because of the oil pressure and burn that I tried repeatedly to fix but failed (the 12J I built had great pressure and didn’t burn a drop).  Without the gauge, ignorance of the problem would have saved a lot of worry - I get 15 or so psi at idle and  50ish at about 1100rpm, so a little below book figures but not enough to be damaging.  It still distracts me, though!

As long as you avoid loading the engine at very low rpm, then you shouldn’t get any issues and so don’t really need a gauge.  But a gauge will give you far better warning of impending failure before damage occurs, and will let you know if you have wear issues before they’re serious.  

[Nonimouse]

Nick

Don't forget when new, the 200tdi had to be consuming in excess of 2 litres of oil every 1000 miles, for the dealer to do a check on  the engine (for warranty).  They are a wet engine and a consumer of oil. My RRC would use a litre of oil every 1000 miles. The 110, about 500 ml. The 100" nothing. The present Disco needs about 200 ml every 1000 miles...

I think I am going to try your washer removal thing...  for a 5 psi gain, it's worth it

[Snagger]

I didn’t know that.  My RR’s 300 didn’t use a drop, but my 200 burns it - you can see the blue smoke at idle and on overrun.  It infuriates me.  If I was going to keep that engine forever, I’d not hesitate to swap it out for a Turner replacement, at least the bottom end, but I like the idea of electric if it becomes affordable and battery charging times come down.

[Nonimouse]

Idle and overrun is most likely the valve stem seals

I'm happy to stay with an engine I can run on rape seed oil. Knowing what I know now, I think I would simply re-build the 200. I have an excellent engine shop local to me and with the help of my friend, I reckon I could build a very high standard of engine. I'm very happy with my stage 2.5 head. I'm experimenting with a modified inlet manifold  - but that's early doors.

Electric will come, but I'll not rush down that road

[Nonimouse]

Well, it hasn't cured it. It's better, but not significantly.

I haven't tried Nick's trick yet - I am going to

I'm going to run the vehicle and see what happens

And pick up a spare engine

[Snagger]

On 5/27/2020 at 7:39 PM, Nonimouse said:

Idle and overrun is most likely the valve stem seals

I'm happy to stay with an engine I can run on rape seed oil. Knowing what I know now, I think I would simply re-build the 200. I have an excellent engine shop local to me and with the help of my friend, I reckon I could build a very high standard of engine. I'm very happy with my stage 2.5 head. I'm experimenting with a modified inlet manifold  - but that's early doors.

Electric will come, but I'll not rush down that road

The head had been rebuilt very shortly before the car was taken off the road (bought by a fellow club member for parts, and he sold me the engine).  It made me suspicious, so I pulled the head once I got home and found no1 badly scored, so it was all rebored.  It burned the oil once fitted, so even though the head had been done, I put new stein seals on it.  Twice.  Then the turbo failed a few years later, so was sent for rebuild.  That was a bodge job by a company in Reading, so it was replaced with a rebuilt one from Turbo Technics.  Then the head gasket went and there was a little gas erosion, so the head was fully rebuilt again with some new valves and guides.  If it’s the stern seals after all that, then I’ll be shocked.  
 

But I thought stemn seals gave smoke on start up and then cleared, where I get smoke even after a long run on idle or overrun, but not when the engine is working.  I was wondering about the turbo getting too much oil, and low turbine gas pressure allowing oil past the seals into the turbine to be burned.  That’s why I got excited about the Binky video with the turbo and the chat about the restricting banjo bolt.  Maybe I have a bad return hose, but I was able to look through it when it was removed.  I suspect bore glazing from using Slick 50 for the first 20k after running in (I since learned it’s notorious for it) and maybe from vegoil use before it was well enough run in.  But that doesn’t explain the slightly low oil pressure.  The crank had no marks on it at all, and the shells were just going through the white into the copper on the thrust side, so I replaced them switch a new standard set.  I’ll have to check the crank with my vernier, now that I have one, when I go to hone and re-ring it (replacing the oil jet banjo bolts at Ralph’s suggestion while I’m at it, and the oil pump spring with new too).

I hope you get more success than I had.  I’ll be following with interest, like I did Ralph’s engine thread, hoping to learn more.  I would love to just wash my hands of that engine and get another from Turner, but I won’t have the budget, so everything I can learn from you guys has to be of benefit.

 

[Nonimouse]

28 minutes ago, Snagger said:

The head had been rebuilt very shortly before the car was taken off the road (bought by a fellow club member for parts, and he sold me the engine).  It made me suspicious, so I pulled the head once I got home and found no1 badly scored, so it was all rebored.  It burned the oil once fitted, so even though the head had been done, I put new stein seals on it.  Twice.  Then the turbo failed a few years later, so was sent for rebuild.  That was a bodge job by a company in Reading, so it was replaced with a rebuilt one from Turbo Technics.  Then the head gasket went and there was a little gas erosion, so the head was fully rebuilt again with some new valves and guides.  If it’s the stern seals after all that, then I’ll be shocked.  
 

But I thought stemn seals gave smoke on start up and then cleared, where I get smoke even after a long run on idle or overrun, but not when the engine is working.  I was wondering about the turbo getting too much oil, and low turbine gas pressure allowing oil past the seals into the turbine to be burned.  That’s why I got excited about the Binky video with the turbo and the chat about the restricting banjo bolt.  Maybe I have a bad return hose, but I was able to look through it when it was removed.  I suspect bore glazing from using Slick 50 for the first 20k after running in (I since learned it’s notorious for it) and maybe from vegoil use before it was well enough run in.  But that doesn’t explain the slightly low oil pressure.  The crank had no marks on it at all, and the shells were just going through the white into the copper on the thrust side, so I replaced them switch a new standard set.  I’ll have to check the crank with my vernier, now that I have one, when I go to hone and re-ring it (replacing the oil jet banjo bolts at Ralph’s suggestion while I’m at it, and the oil pump spring with new too).

I hope you get more success than I had.  I’ll be following with interest, like I did Ralph’s engine thread, hoping to learn more.  I would love to just wash my hands of that engine and get another from Turner, but I won’t have the budget, so everything I can learn from you guys has to be of benefit.

 

When I first bought the Disco, she would always smoke on the overrun, really badly immediately after engine braking in low first down a steep descent. What we call 'Smeach' in Somerset. Big clouds of stinky smoke that quickly clears. So I had the head reconditioned by Hamlins - as well as the Stage 2.5 works. It's been fine since. Smoke on start up is normal for a 200, so a little oil being burnt is barely noticeable.

I've left the test gauge connected for the time being, so this morning I had a brisk drive into town  and back, checked it again and the pressure at hot was 12 psi. Bang on. 900 rpm idle. So better than last night.

 

The weird thing, last night, was that at 2k rpm the pressure was fluctuating, between 40 and 32 and back. I'm stumped on that

Luckily I've been given a spare engine, so I'll collect that, remove it from the vehicle, then see how things develop with the original lump

[Sigi_H]

Since 20.000 km I got a new 200 Tdi engine by Turner. After running in and 20.000 km it consumes 1.5l of oil at 8.500km which is 0.18 l/1000km

My old engine (350.000 km) used ca. 0.2l /1000km

This is the value, that seems to be normal to me. Oil pressure cold is 4 bar and hot is 2.5 bar. At idle ca 1 bar but it rises quickly

Edited May 30, 2020 by Sigi_H

[Snagger]

I can’t remember now (it’s five years that it’s been in storage), but I think my rate was double that.  I did ask Richard Turner and he said he would live with it rather than fix it, but I’m a perfectionist and a worrier!

[Anderzander]

On 5/26/2020 at 11:32 AM, FridgeFreezer said:

I'd imagine it's the case with any engine really.

Hmm 🤔. I never drive on road like that - but certain off road routes I do drive off the torque at tick over. On the Td5 with anti stall and on the tdi too - seems I need rethink that. 
 

What are the recommended oil pressures for the Tdi? I got this from somewhere, but don’t know if it’s right:

Cold idle 29 to 43 psi
2000 rpm 58 psi plus

Hot idle 18 psi
2000 rpm 32 psi

[Snagger]

All the four cylinder should have 25psi at warm idle and 55 at mid and high rpm.  I’m getting around 18-20 and 50 respectively.  I got 25/55 on my 12j, but that didn’t have a turbo taking a considerable flow, but I think Ralph got the book figures.

[western]

1 hour ago, Anderzander said:

Hmm 🤔. I never drive on road like that - but certain off road routes I do drive off the torque at tick over. On the Td5 with anti stall and on the tdi too - seems I need rethink that. 
 

What are the recommended oil pressures for the Tdi? I got this from somewhere, but don’t know if it’s right:

Cold idle 29 to 43 psi
2000 rpm 58 psi plus

Hot idle 18 psi
2000 rpm 32 psi

extracted from my 200Tdi rebuild thread, ------------------ hardly any change it pressures since 2017. 

oil pressure stone cold just after start up 65psi

after a 15 mile run home

oil pressure while driving 55psi

at idle 25psi

oil temp 65/70 degree C

coolant temp 75 degree C

 

Defender workshop manual only gives -- Oil pressure engine warm at normal operating speeds 1.76 to 3.86kgf/cm2 = 25 to 54.9psi