Wonky Wiring

[GeorgetheLandy]

Hello All,

My name is Gary, I'm from the UK originally but now live over in the USA.  Thanks for letting me be part of this forum, I promise I will do my best to avoid asking stupid questions, but realize my first question my fall into that category.  So I own a 1964 Land Rover Series 2A 109 wheelbase.  I am the third owner and over the years despite being looked after fairly well and surviving a journey down the Pan American Highway from Washington State to Cape Horn Argentina, so George has a wonderful history and deserves to be  gently restored and returned to a good working order, which brings me to my very first question.  

I have just finished restoring the bulkhead which was pretty rusted and needed attention.  I removed the instrument panel and before doing so I photographed every connection from multiple angles and also draw a wiring diagram with colour coding to ensure i returned the wiring to its original state.  Not having an electricians background I wanted to make sure everything was in its place and I avoided any fire hazards in the dash panel.  So the bulkhead is now restored and I returned the wiring to its original state.  I hooked up a new battery and connected the headlights, indicators and side lights too.  I reconnected the full beam, dip switch that was located in the foot well and everything else too.  I put the key in the ignition and turned the light on and the sidelights and headlights came on as they should, the indicators don't work and that may just be the bulb or some other connection, but the main issue is the added bonus on the brake lights now being on full time when I turn on the headlights.  I have checked the wiring and just don't see anything out of place or disconnected.  What I need help with is the best way to fault find.  Or if anyone has by chance had the same thing happen.  I thought it may be because the indicators are not working so I will run out today and get new bulbs to cancel out that possibility but beyond that I am stuck, any advice?

Many thanks and pleased to be part of this forum.

G

[Snagger]

Welcome to the forum!  Great to hear you are saving such a distinguished vehicle.

There is no such thing as a stupid question, just stupidity for being to proud to ask any question.  Even the most experienced folk on here keep learning stuff from other members.

Regarding the wiring, a lot of problems could be caused if it’s a positive earth vehicle (quite possible for a SII) and you fit any items in a negative earth (later) manner, so I’d make that the first check.  I haven’t worked on a vehicle of that vintage, so that’s about as far as my knowledge will go!

[Bowie69]

Was it fitted with hazards? If so this switch needs to be in the circuit, switched  off and not rusted to oblivion (very common).

Have you connected up the earths? I don't know for sure, but I think the 2a has an earth's for each side for the tail lights, without this you all sorts of weird happening.

Almost as weird as a keyboard autocorrecting  earths  to earth's every single flipping time.

[GeorgetheLandy]

15 minutes ago, Snagger said:

Welcome to the forum!  Great to hear you are saving such a distinguished vehicle.

There is no such thing as a stupid question, just stupidity for being to proud to ask any question.  Even the most experienced folk on here keep learning stuff from other members.

Regarding the wiring, a lot of problems could be caused if it’s a positive earth vehicle (quite possible for a SII) and you fit any items in a negative earth (later) manner, so I’d make that the first check.  I haven’t worked on a vehicle of that vintage, so that’s about as far as my knowledge will go!

Thanks, yes it is a positive earth, forgot to mention that.  I'm going to work through it today and see if I can fault find.  I just wanted to ask the crowd before jumping in as it may save me time...  Thanks for the reply and I will go back over any items I have fitted that might be negative earth.  Thanks so much.

G

[GeorgetheLandy]

13 minutes ago, Bowie69 said:

Was it fitted with hazards? If so this switch needs to be in the circuit, switched  off and not rusted to oblivion (very common).

Have you connected up the earths? I don't know for sure, but I think the 2a has an earth's for each side for the tail lights, without this you all sorts of weird happening.

Almost as weird as a keyboard autocorrecting  earths  to earth's every single flipping time.

No, only the original lights, It's all original and I am lucky that there is no aftermarket items on it.  It worked before I started messing with it so it must be something I have done.  Thanks for the reply and great to meet you.

G

[GeorgetheLandy]

Thanks for the replies, wish me luck.

G

[GeorgetheLandy]

20 hours ago, Snagger said:

Welcome to the forum!  Great to hear you are saving such a distinguished vehicle.

There is no such thing as a stupid question, just stupidity for being to proud to ask any question.  Even the most experienced folk on here keep learning stuff from other members.

Regarding the wiring, a lot of problems could be caused if it’s a positive earth vehicle (quite possible for a SII) and you fit any items in a negative earth (later) manner, so I’d make that the first check.  I haven’t worked on a vehicle of that vintage, so that’s about as far as my knowledge will go!

Thanks for the link to your website, lovely work.  I got side tracked yesterday with trying to fit some new fence posts.  It sounds like I need to do a little more research into the positive earth side of things.  I have recently primed, painted and in some places sealed with Eastwood rust prohibitor the chassis and body work so I wonder whether the circuit has been disrupted.  I'll read through you website to see if there is anything on this positive earth issue and if I find anything elsewhere I will share back.  I'm so close to getting George up and running again...

Thanks for your time and great to meet you.

G

[David Sparkes]

Quote

So I own a 1964 Land Rover Series 2A 109 wheelbase.  ... yes it is a positive earth ... the main issue is the added bonus on the brake lights now being on full time when I turn on the headlights.

You might like to be aware of the UK based Series Two Club. There are several US members already, although I understand it's a big place, so that doesn't mean there will be any near you 🙂
Via their website and Forum they have many circuit diagrams available, differentiating between Petrol and Diesel, Positive and Negative earth system,s and whether a dynamo or alternator is fitted. It's unlikely to have both a Positive earth system and an alternator. It is possible, but I mention it to point out that the wiring diagrams cover almost all eventualities. Many users appear to find the Club diagrams easier to follow than the LR versions.

The brake light issue might be because the tail light and brake light wiring has been swapped over accidentally.

Regards.

[steve b]

Hi Gary , the positive earth shouldn't affect any of the wiring or fittings . The only parts that have polarity would be the ammeter ( would show + for discharge) and the dynamo field coil but if it worked before and hasn't been flashed to change polarity then don't do anything with it . 

As Bowie says , check all lighting units for a good earth and if there is doubt run a earth wire to a known good earth point or a temporary earth to battery +ve 

On the indicators , check the ignition live to the flasher can then check the output from that at the indicator switch connectors . The ind. switch is serviceable so if it needs a clean you can . 

By putting a temporary live to each side output from ind. switch you can light up the ind. lights each side to check function .

Some pic's of this well travelled 109 would be great too 

cheers

Steve

[Snagger]

1 hour ago, GeorgetheLandy said:

Thanks for the link to your website, lovely work.  I got side tracked yesterday with trying to fit some new fence posts.  It sounds like I need to do a little more research into the positive earth side of things.  I have recently primed, painted and in some places sealed with Eastwood rust prohibitor the chassis and body work so I wonder whether the circuit has been disrupted.  I'll read through you website to see if there is anything on this positive earth issue and if I find anything elsewhere I will share back.  I'm so close to getting George up and running again...

Thanks for your time and great to meet you.

G

Sorry, G, but there is nothing on there about positive earth  electrics.  I hope you midget find it useful for some mechanical repair issues if they crop up, and thanks for the comment.  Sorry I can’t give any more advice, but I have never worked on a positive earth vehicle.

[monkie]

Wiring can be daunting but planning is key. I rewired my 1988 110 earlier this year. I found that breaking each wiring circuit down to individual components and drawing a table of what the wire colour codes were really helped me understand what was going on. I have never worked on a series vehicle so I can't comment on the individual circuits but my advice would be to check your wiring against the circuit diagram very carefully and triple check your earths are good. The best upgrade I made to my wiring was a nice thick earth cable to each corner of the 110 going straight back to the battery to give me a reliable earth point at each corner. 

I learnt so much about my wiring by doing it myself and getting some things wrong but it was ultimately part of my learning process. 

[GeorgetheLandy]

4 hours ago, steve b said:

Hi Gary , the positive earth shouldn't affect any of the wiring or fittings . The only parts that have polarity would be the ammeter ( would show + for discharge) and the dynamo field coil but if it worked before and hasn't been flashed to change polarity then don't do anything with it . 

As Bowie says , check all lighting units for a good earth and if there is doubt run a earth wire to a known good earth point or a temporary earth to battery +ve 

On the indicators , check the ignition live to the flasher can then check the output from that at the indicator switch connectors . The ind. switch is serviceable so if it needs a clean you can . 

By putting a temporary live to each side output from ind. switch you can light up the ind. lights each side to check function .

Some pic's of this well travelled 109 would be great too 

cheers

Steve

Thanks Steve, I’ll share some photos in another post.  Thanks for all the help, I hope to get out this weekend and work on it.  Lots of great advice so thank you all.

Gary

[GeorgetheLandy]

3 hours ago, monkie said:

Wiring can be daunting but planning is key. I rewired my 1988 110 earlier this year. I found that breaking each wiring circuit down to individual components and drawing a table of what the wire colour codes were really helped me understand what was going on. I have never worked on a series vehicle so I can't comment on the individual circuits but my advice would be to check your wiring against the circuit diagram very carefully and triple check your earths are good. The best upgrade I made to my wiring was a nice thick earth cable to each corner of the 110 going straight back to the battery to give me a reliable earth point at each corner. 

I learnt so much about my wiring by doing it myself and getting some things wrong but it was ultimately part of my learning process. 

That’s a good idea, I may try that.  Thanks for the reply and advice.

[GeorgetheLandy]

5 hours ago, David Sparkes said:

You might like to be aware of the UK based Series Two Club. There are several US members already, although I understand it's a big place, so that doesn't mean there will be any near you 🙂
Via their website and Forum they have many circuit diagrams available, differentiating between Petrol and Diesel, Positive and Negative earth system,s and whether a dynamo or alternator is fitted. It's unlikely to have both a Positive earth system and an alternator. It is possible, but I mention it to point out that the wiring diagrams cover almost all eventualities. Many users appear to find the Club diagrams easier to follow than the LR versions.

The brake light issue might be because the tail light and brake light wiring has been swapped over accidentally.

Regards.

Just signed up to the Series Two Club, many thanks again.

[steve b]

That's a very nice 109 , great work . 

With all that new paint I'm thinking earth returns to either the battery or the main starter earth wouldn't be a bad idea .

Steve

[FridgeFreezer]

Hot damn that's a nice 109 and great history too!

The wiring is very simple on Series vehicles - sometimes too simple (it is well worth adding a few discreet fuses for safety) and at this age it would be entirely normal for most of the connections/exposed ends to be corroded and the wires to be deteriorated.

The good news is with a bit of planning you can re-wire one front to back quite easily depending on how perfectly original you want it to look. Doing sections is a nice way to get it done in easy instalments over a few weekends.

[Troll Hunter]

On 6/14/2021 at 10:33 AM, GeorgetheLandy said:

 

 

Are those genuine LR/OEM dogs, or did they come in a blue bag?  The way they seem comfortable it suggests that they are genuine items not uncomfortable with being in a classic Land Rover.  Perhaps it's their natural environment.  If they did come in a blue bag, look out, they could be snarly.

Mike

[GeorgetheLandy]

Thanks for all the advice so far.  I have checked the dash panel and everything is how it should be so the issue of the brake lights staying on constantly is not found there.  The next two places I need to check is the wiring at the back as it passes through the chassis as I have had some welding done back there and the wires may have shorted there somewhere.  Failing that the only other place I can think of is the hydraulic brake switch above the pedal.  I may check the rear wiring first as that may be more obvious but the brakes lights still come on full and constantly when I turn on the main beam…

the good news is the indicators are now working, so one less fault to find.

Here’s the latest front shot of George:

 

[GeorgetheLandy]

Update: So I have tracked down and ordered a new hydraulic brake light switch. I am hoping this is the culprit in the case of my brake lights remaining on full when I turn the headlights on.  Everything else is working well now, indicators, wiper motors, side lights and main beam.  Just need to resolve the brake light problem and hoping this will do the trick.  Any advice with fitting a hydraulic brake light switch on an early IIA would be well received.

Thanks

Gary

 

P.S. Updated photo of George too…

Edited July 20, 2021 by GeorgetheLandy

[Bowie69]

If a vehicle ever can, that is looking very sweet.

Love the worklamp, very lucky find!

[steve b]

Before you fit the new switch , have you disconnected the wires from the existing switch to confirm it's faulty ? I'm still not really seeing a link electrically between the headlights and the brake lights . Do the brake lights work normally with just sidelights on ? Do the brake lights come on with dip and main beam ? Or just main ? 

Do the brake lights work normally with no sidelights or headlights on ? 

Steve

[ballcock]

I wouldn't think it is the brake switch if they only come on with the headlights.  As Steve b has just posted do the sidelights illuminate with the brake pedal? I would suspect wires melted together from the welding or no earth at the rear so the supply back feeds through both filaments to find an earth path.  I would run a temporary earth to the rear to eliminate that possibility. good luck and what a great looking motor.

[GeorgetheLandy]

On 7/20/2021 at 1:16 PM, steve b said:

Before you fit the new switch , have you disconnected the wires from the existing switch to confirm it's faulty ? I'm still not really seeing a link electrically between the headlights and the brake lights . Do the brake lights work normally with just sidelights on ? Do the brake lights come on with dip and main beam ? Or just main ? 

Do the brake lights work normally with no sidelights or headlights on ? 

Steve

Hello Steve,

      So yes, I did disconnect the wires to the hydraulic switch and the lights turned off.  So I traced it to being something wrong with the switch.  However, my historic plates came a week ago and I fitted them and managed to take her out for a run.  I drove about two miles around the back streets of my neighbourhood and when I returned the brake lights were working as they should.  I can only assume that the switch must have stuck in the on position and this is what was causing them to stay on when I turned on the head lights.  Now when I turn on the head lights they come on alone as they should just as the side lights do when I turn the switch all the way. At some point I think I may treat her to a brand new wiring harness and eliminate all of the wonkiness…. I do have a new hydraulic switch but for now the issue seemed to resolve itself.  I am not an electrician and only have limited ability in this field but did invest in a food voltage meter and will try to do some fault finding.  You may be right that the wires somewhere may have melted or fused together, so will look for that and try to get to the bottom of it.  I guess this comes with the territory hey…For now at least I can get out in her and enjoy the fruits of my 2 and a half years  of labour….

Thanks to you and all for the advice I, am sure there’ll be other issues I’ll need guidance in.

G

[GeorgetheLandy]

On 7/20/2021 at 12:59 PM, Bowie69 said:

If a vehicle ever can, that is looking very sweet.

Love the worklamp, very lucky find!

Yes, the work lamp was a treasure.  Thanks

G

[GeorgetheLandy]

On 7/20/2021 at 1:22 PM, ballcock said:

I wouldn't think it is the brake switch if they only come on with the headlights.  As Steve b has just posted do the sidelights illuminate with the brake pedal? I would suspect wires melted together from the welding or no earth at the rear so the supply back feeds through both filaments to find an earth path.  I would run a temporary earth to the rear to eliminate that possibility. good luck and what a great looking motor.

Thanks for the advice.  I may end up trying to replace the earth wire too, to eliminate that variable.  They are as I mentioned in my reply to Steve B working now.  It’s the most bizarre thing.  I think taking it out and running around the neighbourhood may have either freed up the brake switch or possibly unstuck a fused wire.  I am baffled for sure but the flip side of that is at least they are working as they should be.  As I mentioned in my reply to Steve, I may at some point but a new harness when I can save enough cash.  It could do with one as a lot of the wiring seems very brittle and old.  
I am so thankful that I can now get out in her and enjoy the experience of owning one.  She’s a keeper and now I get to teach my son how to drive a proper car…

Take care and many thanks

G