Poor performance 110 200tdi

[Peaklander]

That's progress! Can you see any restrictions, kinks etc. in the fuel line that you removed, or were there any joins (except the Tee for the Eberspacher)?

Very slightly OT ...

My D2 heater is Tee-d into the feed to the lift pump (300TDi). Doing that didn't affect engine performance. I don't know how it could, save for the possibility of air leaks at the Tee.

What did happen though and no-one could explain why, including Eberspacher, was that when the engine was running, diesel was drawn (or pushed) through the heater (with it off) and it flooded the whole thing. If I fired it up I would cover half the street with white diesel smoke. The solution was a pressure reducer between the Tee and the heater fuel pump.

[western]

My Eberspacher D2 has the fuel tank filler hose adapter, as noted in the post about my D2 install in this thread. 

 

[Jocklandjohn]

1 hour ago, Peaklander said:

That's progress! Can you see any restrictions, kinks etc. in the fuel line that you removed, or were there any joins (except the Tee for the Eberspacher)?

Very slightly OT ...

My D2 heater is Tee-d into the feed to the lift pump (300TDi). Doing that didn't affect engine performance. I don't know how it could, save for the possibility of air leaks at the Tee.

What did happen though and no-one could explain why, including Eberspacher, was that when the engine was running, diesel was drawn (or pushed) through the heater (with it off) and it flooded the whole thing. If I fired it up I would cover half the street with white diesel smoke. The solution was a pressure reducer between the Tee and the heater fuel pump.

Well to be honest I've not pulled the old fuel pipe out yet! I decided to leave there for the time being as various wires & brake pipe are cable-tied onto it, and near the back the AirlIft bag pipes are fastened to it. I'd had a look more carefully at it and it was pretty tatty, and there is one join in it, so its possible that was compromising it. 

Thats odd behaviour with the Eberspacher - I've not had anything like that in 20 years with it fitted. They're pretty robust and relatively simple, but what might cause that problem I've no idea. Do you think Toyota owners are discussing the same problems or is it just a Land Rover affliction!! 🙂

 

 

[Jocklandjohn]

1 hour ago, western said:

My Eberspacher D2 has the fuel tank filler hose adapter, as noted in the post about my D2 install in this thread. 

 

Thanks Ralph - I came across that post in my searching, but I could not figure out whether that would  work with the wing tank I have which fills the space between the filler mouth and main tank. I've sealed the back of the wheel arch where the tank is fitted, with an ally offcut so the road grot couldn't get into the void above the tank so until I pull that off I can't get a clear view of it. 

[cackshifter]

The smokiness and high EGT suggests you are a bit short of air for burning. Do you know if you are getting full boost - I know you said it's a hybrid turbo.

[western]

 

17 hours ago, Jocklandjohn said:

Thanks Ralph - I came across that post in my searching, but I could not figure out whether that would  work with the wing tank I have which fills the space between the filler mouth and main tank. I've sealed the back of the wheel arch where the tank is fitted, with an ally offcut so the road grot couldn't get into the void above the tank so until I pull that off I can't get a clear view of it. 

I don't think the part I used will fit between the standard tank & your wing tank, I do have a different pipe kit that might be useful,

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/382876365524

will post a photo shortly. 

[Jocklandjohn]

40 minutes ago, cackshifter said:

The smokiness and high EGT suggests you are a bit short of air for burning. Do you know if you are getting full boost - I know you said it's a hybrid turbo.

I have a boost gauge and can watch it operate as the speed increases and its going up/down/up again as per vehicle acceleration as appropriate, reaching the 1.3Bar max I've set as suggested by supplier and lad who serviced my fuel pump.

I'm getting the injectors serviced and new nozzles fitted next week so that might help too. I have to say though that the new fuel hose has made a very signficant difference - acceleration from standstill previously would struggle beyond 2k rpm and now its easily sailing past 3k and beyond so there was obviously some restriction being caused in the old line, or by the Eberspacher take-off.

Still got some work to do but its heading in the right direction!

[Jocklandjohn]

18 minutes ago, western said:

I don't think the part I used will fit between the standard tank & your wing tank, I do have a different pipe kit that might be useful, will post a photo shortly. 

Thanks Ralph, any alternative suggestions very welcome.

[cackshifter]

Well if you are hitting 1.3 bar not much wrong with that!

[Jocklandjohn]

40 minutes ago, cackshifter said:

Well if you are hitting 1.3 bar not much wrong with that!

No thats dandy. The smokiness I was complaining about previously has been improved dramatically by the new fuel line. Off-boost is still noticeable, which I guess is not that unusual but its cleaned up a lot on-boost with the clear fuel supply which is what I'd expect. Lad who's doing the timing belt and pump timing check had a look at the turbo and said it was all fine, wastegate working as expected etc and has suggested I fit a 300Tdi air filter box and filter to give a bigger intake/surface (mine's is still the 19J version) which he thought might improved things a bit more.

I'm getting the impression there's not *one big thing* wrong with the vehicle, rather an accumulation of small things impacting on each other and overall performance.

So, I swapped the lift pump for a new one, that made a difference, installed a boost valve and wound back the threaded rod actuator and got the boost dialled in accurately with the valve and that made a difference as well, swapped the fuel line for a new one and removed the Eberspacher T take-off and thats really improved things as well. So if I get the injectors serviced as well that may see some other improvements too.

With the clarity of hindsight - the reason why I've had several lift pumps fail (6 in the last decade) may be that the difficult pull-through the partially blocked fuel line (if that was the case) was over-taxing them and causing premature failure.

[Jocklandjohn]

1 hour ago, western said:

 

I don't think the part I used will fit between the standard tank & your wing tank, I do have a different pipe kit that might be useful,

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/382876365524

will post a photo shortly. 

Thanks Ralph - thats interesting. I'm not sure where it goes though - is that for tank installation or can it be drilled through the filler neck and then the pipe run down into the tank and the feed led off to the heater?  The bolt on the inside (if in-tank) would be the problem (but not if in the filler neck). The Eberspacher version of that has an oblong plate thats sized to slip through the hole you drill in the top of the tank and then its tightened from above with the seal external.  I cant think of any reason why going through the filler neck wall and installing a small fitting like that would create any problems?

[western]

think it can be put whereever you want to pick up fuel from  for example drill the metal filler neck & fit it with the metalpipe going down into the main tank or drill the top face of the return pipe & fit it through there in either case the metal pipe would have to reach the bottom of the tank or close to the bottom. 

I don't need the one I have, it was going to be used but I bought the filler neck adaptor pipe instead. so the kit in photo is availablefor what I paid on ebay, if you want it, just ping me a PM.

[Jocklandjohn]

23 minutes ago, western said:

think it can be put whereever you want to pick up fuel from  for example drill the metal filler neck & fit it with the metalpipe going down into the main tank or drill the top face of the return pipe & fit it through there in either case the metal pipe would have to reach the bottom of the tank or close to the bottom. 

I don't need the one I have, it was going to be used but I bought the filler neck adaptor pipe instead. so the kit in photo is availablefor what I paid on ebay, if you want it, just ping me a PM.

Thanks Ralph, I'll have a look at the filler neck over the weekend and measure from any likely fitting location to the aux tank floor and see what length I require. I'm sure I can lengthen the pipe a tad with some nylon tube if needs be. I'll certainly take it if its goging to fit as the Ebay vendor in that link won't post to the Scottish Highlands because the Scottish Highlands is off the edge of the map in nowheresville apparently, and its out of stock anyway!!   Is the long metal pipe flexible enough to get it to turn the corner to go down into the tank if installed in a nearly vertical pipe?

[western]

The info sheet has the measurements on it.

metal pipe 18.7 inches or 47.5cm

nylon hose 13.12 feet or 4 metres

[Jocklandjohn]

1 hour ago, western said:

The info sheet has the measurements on it.

metal pipe 18.7 inches or 47.5cm

nylon hose 13.12 feet or 4 metres

Cheers Ralph thats longer than the ebay one so it should be fine, PM sent.

Edited November 12, 2021 by Jocklandjohn

[Jon W]

Just caught up with this. You say you have 1.3bar but this is measured at the turbo, You need to measure it at the intake plenum as then you will know if you have a leak at the intercooler or any of the piping. 

It does sound like timing to me. I have fiddled with mine and as you say smooth quiet running is retarded and noisy knocking is too far advanced. I set mine up in the end with a DTI gauge. There is info on the fouby tdi performance page on facebook as to how to do this 

 

Hope you find the problem

 

[Jocklandjohn]

20 minutes ago, Jon W said:

Just caught up with this. You say you have 1.3bar but this is measured at the turbo, You need to measure it at the intake plenum as then you will know if you have a leak at the intercooler or any of the piping. 

It does sound like timing to me. I have fiddled with mine and as you say smooth quiet running is retarded and noisy knocking is too far advanced. I set mine up in the end with a DTI gauge. There is info on the fouby tdi performance page on facebook as to how to do this 

 

Hope you find the problem

 

Thanks for the advice Jon. Aye, I'm leaning towards the timing being the problem (from what I've read, as I'lve never fiddled with it). I'm pulling the injectors next couple of day and getting them serviced so apart from any blockages between filter and pump thats it all overhauled - new tank, new fuel pick up, new fuel line, new lift pump, injectors serviced & new tips...and FIP was done not long ago was well and I've not messed around with it since. Only leaves timing belt and pump timing so at least that can be tackled knowing everything else is sorted.

I'll report back with any more improvements!!

[Eightpot]

Just a slight aside and of no particular relevance on boost gauge hose connection here, just a passing rambling while it comes to mind- I've found a neat way to connect the gauge pressure pipe if its not convenient to drill the manifold and avoid using T pieces is to swap the FIP banjo fitting for the boost pipe, for a twin barbed leak off banjo from a 12J injector which is the same size and gives the extra outlet.  Gives a short tidy run to the dash and you can see boost at the pump. 

[Jocklandjohn]

28 minutes ago, Eightpot said:

Just a slight aside and of no particular relevance on boost gauge hose connection here, just a passing rambling while it comes to mind- I've found a neat way to connect the gauge pressure pipe if its not convenient to drill the manifold and avoid using T pieces is to swap the FIP banjo fitting for the boost pipe, for a twin barbed leak off banjo from a 12J injector which is the same size and gives the extra outlet.  Gives a short tidy run to the dash and you can see boost at the pump. 

Aha thats a clever solution!

[Junglie]

On 10/6/2021 at 9:01 AM, Sigi_H said:

I ran my Ducati 900SS without open intake for 90.000km quite harder than a Land Rover engine.

Result: two sets of Pistons

A few minutes without filter is absolutely no problem, as long as you can garantee no hard parts flying in the turbo.

My 900SS had bellmouth inlets and the "filters" were a wire mesh which appeared to be designed to stop it from sucking in passing dogs. That was how it came from the factory. I ran it for a few years, including 2 seasons of racing, and it never broke (because of that).

Obviously it broke for quite a few other reasons as it was a Ducati that got raced

 

[Jocklandjohn]

THREAD UPDATE

The poor running has been rectified! I have a new  engine!  Well I dont really have a new engine, its still the same one, but it certainly feels like a new one!

After a conversation with Pete Bell (IRB) I decided to remove the hybrid turbo I was recommended to fit several years ago and fit one of his VNT/VGT turbo kits instead. My goodness what a difference.

I fitted it over Thursday and Friday of last week, and yesterday took it for a gentle run and the smoothness is remarkable. I live on a hill and typically with the old turbo I’d have to use 2nd gear, and getting into 3rd was only ever only possible if I really revved it, and even then it struggled and the result was little speed increase but lots of black smoke and very high EGT’s. With the new turbo I was amazed to be able to pull up the hill cleanly in 2nd, change into 3rd and maintain very relaxed pulling ability and crucially be able to back off on the throttle in 3rd whislt still accelerating and then accelerate again and it would still pull back up to speed again without changing down a gear. What is remarkable is the attendant lack of black smoke and no high EGT’s as I would experience previously.

On the flat in 4th and 5th it pulls cleanly and smoothly, particularly in 5th where I can amble along at 1500rpm and then accelerate and it picks up speed smoothly and with considerable ooomph, and the massive drop in EGT’s across the range is very noticeable, as is the lack of black smoke throughout the rev range. Climbing up the hill above the house I was previously seeing 650Deg for modest pulling power and producing lots of smoke but yesterday doing the same I was able to climb it in a higher gear, with the EGT’s more than 200deg lower and only a light haze from the exhaust.

Watching the boost gauge as its doing all this is very interesting as the boost rises almost from 5mph and climbs steadily as it accelerates and barely drops off as  change gears. Very clever stuff.

I am utterly astonished and delighted by the performance difference! 

Early days yet - I need to give it a few good runs to really get a feel for it in various circumstances, but on the short test runs thus far the VGT has turned a 30 year old 300,000 mile heavy 110, which was really struggling, into a vehicle that feels as sprightly and modern as an old lump will ever feel.

 

[Snagger]

That sounds great.  I hope you don’t get the same troubles as Mav and several others I have read about from that VNT.

[Jocklandjohn]

4 hours ago, Snagger said:

That sounds great.  I hope you don’t get the same troubles as Mav and several others I have read about from that VNT.

I've read plenty of the good stuff, and pored over a load of the bad stuff when researching it, and after due consideration decided to give it a go. I think the variability of LR engines (of the same type!) and the 'effect' that has on the stuff you fit makes it a 50/50 decision. Eg lift pumps - folks have the same ones for years, working perfectly. Mine? Seven in a decade! Allmakes, Britpart, Delphi...tried them all, and all have failed prematurely.

I shall report back if things go south! But at the moment Ilm enjoying the novelty of a vehicle that can go up hills properly - well the modest ones so far - the major ones I've still to have a go at.

What it does point to though is the possibility of the previous turbo being carp. Oddly enough that turbo was fitted 14 years ago when the engine was out for a chassis change, the engine guy pronounced the engine in excellent condition and advised a hybrid turbo and fitted it. Engine back in by chassis lads and when they took it up the road to deliver it to me the turbo blew. They'd  a bit of a wrestling match with the turbo supplier (apparently, so they informed me) but it was replaced with the one I then used for the next decade or so, and have had loads of poor running issues with. I'm just wondering now whether there was a bad batch of components or some other issue with those turbos. Who knows.

Anyway, at the moment I have stopped polluting the neighbourhood and can contemplate various local hills without worrying if I'm going to have to stop and change into low range!