LPG tank installations

[jad]

Evening everyone, hoping some people can give me some inspiration. I'm looking to install LPG on my 109. I wanted to put a couple of sill tanks in that would sit above the bottom of the chassis but am struggling to find appropriate size tanks. I'm looking to keep the original petrol tank as well so can't put a toroidal tank there. Can anyone share photos of their installs and also let me know the diameter, length and capacity of their tanks? Unless anyone can convince me otherwise then I think I'll be putting a large tank in the load bed although lengthways rather than across.

Thanks in advance.

Jad

[Arjan]

All depends on the system, the law and your budget.

Talk to some installers

[jad]

I don't currently have a system and I am planning to do the installation myself. Do you have any pictures of a tank installation?

[Snagger]

I can’t help with the technical aspects, but I am curious why you want to do this.  There are many places where LPG is prohibited, like on car ferries and the Channel Tunnel, limiting you movements,  the price shot up years ago and forecourts with LPG are scarce and become more so.  I don’t see much benefit, once you go through the effort and cost of installation.  Speaking of costs, have you asked your preferred insurers what effect it’ll have on your premiums?  I doubt it’ll be small, and DIY installation will block you from many insurers outright.

[jad]

There shouldn't be any issues in ferries and the are cheaper than the Chunnel. The nearest LPG station is less than half a mile from my house and it's still nearly half the price of petrol. At 17mpg a round trip to my parents the other day was half a tank of fuel. I plan to speak to my insurance. My vehicle isn't very standard at the moment and I only pay £165 so don't think it would change much.

[elbekko]

When installing a new system now, I think I'd go for CNG instead of LPG. As Snagger said, prices are up and available fuelling stations are down unless you go to eastern Europe.

Indeed not a problem on the ferry.

[=jon=]

I've got twin underslung tanks on mine - the drivers side is a 300mm diameter tank (can only find a receipt for the tank straps, sorry!) and just fits between the outriggers, the passenger side is a 240mm tank and shorter, but this is on a 110 not a 109 so there may be chassis differences.

If you have a look at somewhere like Tinley, they have a selection of tanks, with some measuring you should be able to work out what fits.

If you are starting to assemble parts - I have a single point vaporiser and a BLOS carb, probably some other bits and pieces (changeover switch, VIP mixture controller etc) which I've been meaning to sell on here - drop me a PM if you are interested. 

[jad]

Thanks Jon. Unfortunately for me I think a 110 has more space than a 109. Potentially more depth and then less in the way of outriggers. I have one outrigger on the drivers side that doesn't serve any function on mine. Maybe for the SWB fuel tank? A 240mm tank is pretty small. The smallest I have seen is 270mm. Think tinley only go to 300. Thanks for the offer but I think I would be buying a multipoint kit as I am running a lexus engine on megasquirt. I will have another look under it today but I think to get my range aim I need 75 total litres which I don't think I can cram under the car 😐 any pictures of yours would be appreciated.

Thanks

[elbekko]

Is your megasquirt set up for multi-fuel? In that case I would seriously consider using that instead of piggybacking an LPG ECU, it's not like they do *that* much more.

[jad]

I looked into that previously and I think the main issue with using megasquirt to drive both is that most petrol injectors are low impedance and LPG injectors are high impedance or vice versa and if you get it wrong you can blow the ECU. I think you have to run an external control for the different impedance injectors or something. It looked a bit more hassle than it was worth but if anyone has any further experience that would be great!

[elbekko]

Correct, most LPG injectors are low impedance and would need an extra PWM board to drive them. Still less of a hassle than most multipoint LPG ECUs that aren't very nice to say the least.

We're planning something like that for @Escape's car.

[=jon=]

From memory the smaller tank is 45L, the larger is 55L - from empty to full is around 85L which would work out somewhere close to right as you can't fill them completely full. I think they are this type: https://tinleytech.co.uk/shop/lpg-tanks/single-hole/single-hole-cylinder-tank/

I ran the BLOS on megasquirt for a few years - you just have a second ignition table with the LPG curve on it, and a completely zero'd fuel table. I'm now running multi-point with an LPG ECU, but slowly moving more of the LPG functions to MS - gas pressure correction etc. At the moment it runs well, but there's a few niggles which appear to be because the LPG ecu makes corrections that the MS doesn't know about, even though I've disabled as much as possible. 

Elbekko is right regarding the injectors - you would likely need a peak + hold board to drive them. It's also likely that the currents are different to peak + hold petrol injectors (some are, some appear to work) which means modifying most of the peak and hold boards from standard. You would also be 'better' moving to MS3 if you aren't already as this offers a lot more control around dual fuels, and can do all of the gas temp/pressure correction. 

[missingsid]

7 hours ago, jad said:

There shouldn't be any issues in ferries and the are cheaper than the Chunnel. The nearest LPG station is less than half a mile from my house and it's still nearly half the price of petrol. At 17mpg a round trip to my parents the other day was half a tank of fuel. I plan to speak to my insurance. My vehicle isn't very standard at the moment and I only pay £165 so don't think it would change much.

I'd be surprised if the insurance would wear it as the normally want to see a certificate of installation to ensure you have not created a bomb that will cost them a huge amount in 3rd party claims.

[jad]

1 hour ago, elbekko said:

We're planning something like that for @Escape's car.

This definitely needs a good write up 😉

[jad]

46 minutes ago, =jon= said:

From memory the smaller tank is 45L, the larger is 55L - from empty to full is around 85L which would work out somewhere close to right as you can't fill them completely full. I think they are this type: https://tinleytech.co.uk/shop/lpg-tanks/single-hole/single-hole-cylinder-tank/

I ran the BLOS on megasquirt for a few years - you just have a second ignition table with the LPG curve on it, and a completely zero'd fuel table. I'm now running multi-point with an LPG ECU, but slowly moving more of the LPG functions to MS - gas pressure correction etc. At the moment it runs well, but there's a few niggles which appear to be because the LPG ecu makes corrections that the MS doesn't know about, even though I've disabled as much as possible. 

Elbekko is right regarding the injectors - you would likely need a peak + hold board to drive them. It's also likely that the currents are different to peak + hold petrol injectors (some are, some appear to work) which means modifying most of the peak and hold boards from standard. You would also be 'better' moving to MS3 if you aren't already as this offers a lot more control around dual fuels, and can do all of the gas temp/pressure correction. 

Yeah without significantly modifying the the rear bulkhead and outrigger I am not going to be able to accommodate a reasonable size tank so think I am stuck with one inside!

I think that I am running MS2... It's been quite a long time since I have played with it!

[Arjan]

109" can take a twin-tank (84 ltrs. gross) between the chassis rails where your fuel tank is.

Gives about 350 kms. range in real live.

Before spending any money, make sure your insurance company accepts your installation and, if they require an installers compliance cert. you can actually get it.

And before you ask, yes I have driven more miles on LPG than most. The last V8 did a million kms. on LPG without any problems. Vehicle was a RRC with 2 seats and 490 ltrs. nett of LPG in 4 tanks.  Holland <=> Home in France (2300 kms.) without refuelling.... These days, LPG is almost gone on the Continent..

France loves Ethanol at the moment.

[jad]

Almost sounds like it might be better to have a larger tank inside just in case LPG stations are few and far between. I thought Europe generally were a big LPG fan. Always found it interesting that you could buy LPG versions of cars in Europe but not here. Although there are some exceptions like the dacia duster...

[Arjan]

LPG is getting more and more difficult to get off motorway.

Also, please note that UK may have a max. capacity regarding the LPG carried in the vehicle.

France limits it to 124 ltrs. gross

[elbekko]

These days I just drive until the LPG runs out and then drive on petrol until the next LPG station I come across. Less bother than crawling through small German towns in the dead of night trying to find LPG. And the few litres of petrol won't murder your wallet.

So yes, large tank nice, but they're truly enormous - I don't think I'd want something taking up more space than the 90L tank I have in the spare wheel well now.

[Snagger]

Regarding the option of rear mounted tanks in place of the existing petrol tank, that seems a good option, and you already have the outrigger to fit a front petrol tank.

If you are set on sill tanks, then removing that outrigger will give plenty of space.  The rear outriggers will be in a very similar position on a 109 compared to a 110.  The bulkhead outriggers are a little differently positioned, which may reduce the space available, but I imagine the suspension arm mounts on the 110 would negate that.  I think whatever fits a 110 stands a good chance on a 109, but have never tried it.

I can’t iterate enough the importance of checking insurance requirements first.  They may be willing to accept a professionally installed and certified conversion, but I doubt they’ll accept an uncertified DIY job, especially assembled from bits rather than an approved kit.  If they will accept a DIY job of that nature certified by an LPG fitting inspector, I still think you’ll find it impossible to find anyone willing to sign off on your work.  Best to phone around and then get things in writing before you start spending significant money.

[Bowie69]

Not impossible to find an installer to do that, I've done it. 

Also gone down the route of finding an insurer that didn't care about it at all - and yes I did notify them. 

[HoSS]

Good to see you are still running the V8 Jon. If there are any LPG questions i can answer just ask (I' the previous owner of  Jon's 110 and installed the Tinley LPG)

IIRC i was advised by tinley to fit a 45 and a 55, because the depth of the battery box limited the size on that side. Then i saw i could modify the battery box and could have fitted 2x 55l.

I cant see why you'd want more, after all you have the petrol a backup. I'd seriously advise against removing petrol tank, a) you lose that option and b) its better to start on petrol until warmed up (unless the newer multipoint is better on that score) I.e run on LPG as much as you can, but if you need huge range use both, and use Petrol to get you to the next LPG station.

 

Insurance was no problem for me (at least when i did it) Since there was  not accreditation (at the time anyway) for installers (like Corgi for houses), the insurance company were not bothered.

Ask Tinley they were very nice and supportive of DIY installs