Extended Studs for Wolf Wheels on a 1963 IIA

[GeorgetheLandy]

Hello all,

so I recently fitted some Michelin XZLs to a new set of Land Rover Wolf Wheels.  I then went to fit them on my 1963 Land Rover Seriesabm IIA and notices the studs were not long enough; there was not enough length to allow the nuts to thread on all the way.  I then did some research and realised quickly I’d need some longer studs, but struggled to find any.  I did after a lot of looking find some on Rovers North but they wanted $119 for five and I’d need 20 @ $476.  It’s at that point I thought I’d reach out and see if anyone has had the same problem and if they have a cheaper retailer/supplier.  I believe the nuts are 9/16 in diameter and are about 1.5 inches in length, so I am looking for the extended versions to be about 2 inches.

Any thoughts or links?

[David Sparkes]

Where to start?

Wheel Nuts: these can be either 9'16" BSF or 16mm, BUT the double ended wheel nuts you have pictured were only available in 9/16" BSF, so that's the size and thread settled. These double ended nuts are longer than single ends nuts, so make the 'short' studs seem more obvious.

The other characteristic of 9/16" BSF studs is that they threaded into the hub and the inner end of the stud was then splayed out mechanically to stop the stud screwing out unintentionally. If you were to change out all 20 studs you would have to find some way of removing the splayed section.
Because of brute force and ignorance (power tools and / or high tightening torque) the splayed studs are sometimes wound out of the hub, damaging the hub thread. To cope with this there are repair studs with the 9/16" BSF thread but with a splined inner end, but these are shorter than the original studs so don't help you.

Your basic mistake is fitting the Wolf wheels. These are made of thicker steel then the original Series wheels. There were made for a later Land Rover so are made wider, to suit wider tyres, which together with the thicker steel means they weigh a lot more than Series wheels.

I don't know where you got the idea of Wolf wheels (and probably wider tyres) from, but I think it was bad / inappropriate advice.
My advice is to revert to standard tyre sizes on standard Series wheels.

Regards.

[Kohler]

I've looked into this for my series 3 with the goal of bringing the tire out to the edge of the wheel arch (Wolfs have a bigger offset) and fitting a wider tire. It's not an uncommon thing to do. For a series 3 I can get these 60mm studs: https://www.lrdirect.com/frc7577-wheel-stud

They're expensive, but not as much as what you're looking at, however they might not work with a 2A.

Rovers North website says that the wolf wheels will have 3 threads exposed on a series, and that looks like what you're dealing with. There's plenty of people running their Series like this and claim it to be fine and dandy, but I would personally like to use the longer studs.

[GeorgetheLandy]

8 hours ago, David Sparkes said:

Where to start?

Wheel Nuts: these can be either 9'16" BSF or 16mm, BUT the double ended wheel nuts you have pictured were only available in 9/16" BSF, so that's the size and thread settled. These double ended nuts are longer than single ends nuts, so make the 'short' studs seem more obvious.

The other characteristic of 9/16" BSF studs is that they threaded into the hub and the inner end of the stud was then splayed out mechanically to stop the stud screwing out unintentionally. If you were to change out all 20 studs you would have to find some way of removing the splayed section.
Because of brute force and ignorance (power tools and / or high tightening torque) the splayed studs are sometimes wound out of the hub, damaging the hub thread. To cope with this there are repair studs with the 9/16" BSF thread but with a splined inner end, but these are shorter than the original studs so don't help you.

Your basic mistake is fitting the Wolf wheels. These are made of thicker steel then the original Series wheels. There were made for a later Land Rover so are made wider, to suit wider tyres, which together with the thicker steel means they weigh a lot more than Series wheels.

I don't know where you got the idea of Wolf wheels (and probably wider tyres) from, but I think it was bad / inappropriate advice.
My advice is to revert to standard tyre sizes on standard Series wheels.

Regards.

Well, I’m pleased you have a strong opinion and thank you very much for sharing.  I was rather hoping for an answer to my question and less commentary on personal choice and preference.  I am very aware of all that you have pointed out and it’s always good to have such an authority reaffirm that, however I’ll have to pass on you opinion and remind you of what my Dad always said, opinions are like assholes, everyone has one.

Disappointedly

G

 

[GeorgetheLandy]

5 hours ago, Kohler said:

I've looked into this for my series 3 with the goal of bringing the tire out to the edge of the wheel arch (Wolfs have a bigger offset) and fitting a wider tire. It's not an uncommon thing to do. For a series 3 I can get these 60mm studs: https://www.lrdirect.com/frc7577-wheel-stud

They're expensive, but not as much as what you're looking at, however they might not work with a 2A.

Rovers North website says that the wolf wheels will have 3 threads exposed on a series, and that looks like what you're dealing with. There's plenty of people running their Series like this and claim it to be fine and dandy, but I would personally like to use the longer studs.

Thanks, yes I have seen the specialised studs on Rovers North and may have to submit to that, but for almost $450 for a set of 20 I felt it was worth at least asking for advice on where I might find a set.  I may see if I can find some Grade 8 BSF 9/16 threaded rod and turn some myself on my lathe.  Just thought I’d ask around before I went down any one particular path.

Thanks for the helpful feedback.

G

[steve b]

 Long knock in 9/16" studs to suit wolf's on a 2 / 2a are available I think . Britcar might be able to help.

Steve

[GeorgetheLandy]

44 minutes ago, steve b said:

 Long knock in 9/16" studs to suit wolf's on a 2 / 2a are available I think . Britcar might be able to help.

Steve

Thanks, will take a look!

G

[GeorgetheLandy]

7 hours ago, Kohler said:

I've looked into this for my series 3 with the goal of bringing the tire out to the edge of the wheel arch (Wolfs have a bigger offset) and fitting a wider tire. It's not an uncommon thing to do. For a series 3 I can get these 60mm studs: https://www.lrdirect.com/frc7577-wheel-stud

They're expensive, but not as much as what you're looking at, however they might not work with a 2A.

Rovers North website says that the wolf wheels will have 3 threads exposed on a series, and that looks like what you're dealing with. There's plenty of people running their Series like this and claim it to be fine and dandy, but I would personally like to use the longer studs.

Yes, I have been told it’s fine as is but I’d feel more comfortable knowing the studs are securely locked into the hub and the additional length is there for the nuts to sit more securely.  It’s good to push boundaries and challenge things a little but sometimes can be a hard path to tread when there are so many willing to take the traditional path.  Thanks for the advice and I think I’ll save up for the longer studs or simply try to make some

[missingsid]

Obviously I'm not engineer as you will see from my comment but.

I get the "it must have 1.5 threads out the end of every nut'" bit but here the nut is oversize to enable double ended nuts. If you make a nut a foot longer than std having thread out the end makes it no safer!

Check how much thread is engaged, if it is the correct amount I personally wouldn't care about the gap. And didn't on my Series with those nuts and std wheels.

If it does bother you then grind one down to std size for single sided nuts and see how it fits? If it not enough then take action.

When I first got my Series I lost 2 out of 5 of the nuts on one wheel at 80mph they were single sided and had nothing to do with how much thread was out of the end of the nut. It is fair though that the last 3 nuts were also loose so a  longer thread kept them on until I stopped but it would have been the same if it happened when I used replacement double nuts later when I replaced all my studs for knock in as the 2 that left went off with the studs not by the nuts unscrewing.

[Romahomepete]

With double ended nuts the stud usually finishes just inside

NB the Military fitted Wolf wheels with standard studs and nuts according to my ex mil friend

 

Peter

[Snagger]

Land Rover increased the stud length for these wheels, but Hobson Industries did not retrofit them in the Tithonus or other refurbishment programmes for the older 90s and 110s when fit with Wolf wheels and they had the same issue, but it was deemed safe.

If you can legally get away with using SIII or Defender nuts, so they are flat on the outboard end and reduce the problem, then I’d recommend that - it covers the entire thread and so prevents the studs from rusting or the thread being peened by impacts, which is a big advantage too.

If you have to change the studs for the authorities, then Britpart studs were about one tenth the price of genuine.  I stumped up the higher cost because, well, Britpart…

[David Sparkes]

21 minutes ago, Snagger said:

Land Rover increased the stud length for these wheels, but Hobson Industries did not retrofit them in the Tithonus or other refurbishment programmes for the older 90s and 110s when fit with Wolf wheels and they had the same issue, but it was deemed safe.

If you can legally get away with using SIII or Defender nuts, so they are flat on the outboard end and reduce the problem, ...

I'm not sure about 'SIII or Defender nuts' but surely older 90s and 110s would use M16 studs, not the 9/16" indicated by the double ended nuts?
If this is the case the Hobson Industries precedent is not valid.

Regards.

[Snagger]

You may well be right.  Different locations have different regulations.  I can’t imagine Australia ever accepting the Hobson precedent regardless of stud type.  The US seems more flexible.  But I think single ended nuts may be acceptable in most locations as they would only have a turn or two unengaged.  From a practical perspective, it’d be good.  But local laws have to be checked.

[FridgeFreezer]

If your hubs need splined studs then you're probably going to struggle if there's not a suitable part being manufactured.

On my 109 I cut down some M16x1.5 bolts (of the correct grade) on the lathe and wound them in (my hubs are threaded, long story), I'm not familiar with the backs of SIIa hubs but if you have clearance, a reasonably flat surface (or a surface that could be machined flat) and the holes wouldn't end up oversize it might be possible to drill & tap and then thread studs/bolts in from the back.

Mine are loctited with high-strength threadlock and the old ones took serious effort to get out.

[steve b]

Here you go  -   9/16" BSF knock in studs 

Steve

[David Sparkes]

Fine, how do you suggest the 20 existing splayed end threaded studs are removed?
Are you aware that the hubs machined for screwed in studs do not have a recess to take the circular flange on the splined studs?
Unless corrected, this leads to the splined stud protruding less from the front of the hub, compared to the original threaded stud.

I suggest this 561886 stud does not meet the OPs strongly expressed requirement for a stud that is longer than normal.

Regards.

[steve b]

Yes , David I am aware exactly how they fit and have been since 1980.... 

I'm merely suggesting options for what are Actually available to suit the wolf rim face thickness  for early hubs .  

I used some of these last year on a 2a with stripped stud holes and with a small counterbore to seat the head they fit fine . 

If the OP was here in the UK I'd suggest swapping to S3 hubs complete with M16 knock in's ......

Steve

 

[David Sparkes]

35 minutes ago, steve b said:

Yes , David I am aware exactly how they fit and have been since 1980.... 

...

OK, I suspected you knew the answers, but asking the questions was a 'form' to ensure the non-UK person was aware of points that need to be addressed.

Regards.

[steve b]

1 hour ago, David Sparkes said:

OK, I suspected you knew the answers, but asking the questions was a 'form' to ensure the non-UK person was aware of points that need to be addressed.

Regards.

Really? That is not reflected in the tone of your previous post so I'm glad you explained that.

 

 

Some further facts on this :

The standard Series 1 or 2 screw in staked stud . 42mm long.

The double ended nut for a Series 1 or 2 . 25mm long .

The later Series 2a 1 1/16" single sided nut with 9/16" thread. 16mm long approx. 

Now , if we look at the length of the replacement 9/16" knock in , it's 45mm shank length along with a small counterbore to the inner face of the hub stud hole should be enough for 16mm of thread in the nut with wolf rims .

I do hope this is useful info @GeorgetheLandy

 

Steve 

 

[Romahomepete]

Zeus make extended 9/16 pull in studs to allow fitting of their disk brakes.  They are not cheap though

 

Peter

[FridgeFreezer]

On 3/28/2022 at 1:12 PM, steve b said:

The standard Series 1 or 2 screw in staked stud . 42mm long.

Wait, are we saying OP needs regular style screw-in studs?

If so there's companies who'll make them for you quite happily - my studs were made to order by Westfield Fasteners, although it was cheaper to buy bolts & lathe the ends off I believe they will make studs if you really need, cost me about 50 quid for 25.

[deep]

Just out of interest, what is the recommended ways of removing original studs, if the ends are actually splayed?  I have had them come out accidentally with a frozen nut, so it couldn't be that bad, but nobody wants to damage a critical thread!

Personally, I'd be fitting later hubs with the 16mm (roughly 5/8") studs anyway, in this scenario.  I'd feel uneasy with the skinnier studs for a number of reasons.  And I actually agree with Mr. Sparkes too.  Do what you want with your own car, of course, but I've had experience of fitting wider rims, greater offset rims and bigger tyres on Series Land Rovers and the advantages are near zero compared to the disadvantages.  However, I am reminded of a time when my much younger brother told me he didn't want to learn from my mistakes.  He wanted to learn from his own mistakes!

[FridgeFreezer]

@deep and @David Sparkes - I hardly think Wolf rims are an outrageous modification compared to the existing rims, they are very strong rims that are well proven, a nice simple/standard looking style and they're OEM parts. An extra inch or so of width is not exactly carlos fandango territory in these modern times.

Show me any other rim for even many times the price that's rated to 2200kg per corner and really means it.

[David Sparkes]

Oh I'm not going to argue about wheel performance, but I am going to point out the overall costs of moving away from standard (wheels, tyres, studs, nuts) and the significant increase in unsprung weight on a 60+ year old vehicle design, or are new springs and shock absorbers to be added to the costs, in an effort to nullify the disadvantages?

For what?
Per mile of travel, what are the performance advantages being used for?

The OP started off commenting (complaining) about the cost of replacement studs, indicating the cost of modification was starting to exceed 'reasonable'.
I started by trying to point out that the proposal did not appear to be value for money.
It might look good on a spec sheet, but that appears to be all.

To me, the comment by Deep, especially relating to the views of his younger brother, seem highly relevant.

Regards.

[Snagger]

I don’t think a SI with contemporary engine is going to have the performance that a change in unsprung weight is going to matter or even be evident.

I think the question was regarding the safety, legality and costs of various methods of rectifying the thread length problem, of whether it is acceptable as is, longer studs needed with the complication and expense of the vehicle being in North America, or whether other options are available.

I can’t see a strength issue with the older, narrower studs as the vehicle weight is unchanged and that is the dominant weight, even though the increased wheel mass may significantly increase forces when at higher rpm.  But like the OP, I’d have concerns over the thread engagement, especially since these studs are thinner and perhaps shorter than those on the Tithonus vehicles.

The question of thinner nuts, longer 9/16 studs or fitting long metric studs is a fair one.  Each has its pros and cons.  Given the difficulty of modifying the hubs to take the splined metric studs in a manner that doesn’t weaken them, I’d go for the custom studs - that should be simple to achieve and perfectly safe assuming the hub threads are in good order and aren’t damaged during stud removal.  
 

The hubs could be modified for metric studs,  but the holes would have to be enlarged, a shouldered counterbore for the rim cut (not just a standard Vee countersink) and perhaps the bore reamed for the stud splines (or do the splines do that themselves?).  All do-able by a suitable machinist.