geoffbeaumont Posted March 1, 2007 Share Posted March 1, 2007 DONT buy an RV8, they arent easy to waterproof and as far as I'm concerned dont have torque in the right places. Eh? Do a search on here for EDIS. If I was building a new truck there's no way I'd fit the standard ignition, as so far as I know there aren't any other water related problems with the V8? Plenty of other reasons not to buy one, mind... They aren't that powerful out the box, and neither are they very reliable... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted March 2, 2007 Share Posted March 2, 2007 Will - an LS may kill stock LR transmissions but then if you have a big yank motor you can bolt a big yank gearbox and transfer box the the back of it. Your TGV hasn't exactly been kind to your transmission , and it cost more to buy than you can land an LS on these shores for. I know which I'd rather have. Engine choice is nigh on impossible, there are very few right or wrong answers, it's all about what you want it to do, how much you want to spend, how you drive it, etc. etc. TBH if I had any reasonable amount of money to spend on a powerplant I wouldn't be looking at LR ones. TDi's are walking a thin line IMHO between being slightly better than an RV8 on economy but being more expensive to repair. I reckon the future is with more modern lumps from cars in the scrapyard - BMW, Jag, Ford, etc.) or at the bigger pennies end of the scale, LS lumps. As CorrodeFinger pointed out on the bunfight thread, the Rover 220 lump has better specs than a 3.9 V8 and probably does better MPG than a TDi, but costs pennies even with a car attached and can be bolted to a LR gearbox with parts-bin stuff. The Ford Duratec/Zetec lumps are the same, better performance than any LR lump from "only" two litres, millions of them have been made and they run forever. Cosworths are cheap and adapter plates are out there. Then there's the VW TDi's, Audi 5-pots, Nissan Q35 V6 or the 200SX / Skyline lump which is good for 500bhp just by asking it nicely. If you want to really confuse yourself, buy a copy of Practical Performance Car and see what they've stuck into what in there Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dirtydiesel Posted March 2, 2007 Share Posted March 2, 2007 If you want to really confuse yourself, buy a copy of Practical Performance Car and see what they've stuck into what in there Mmmm. last month there was a bloke with a 27 litre rolls-royce meteor engine in a rover sd1. nutcase back on topic though, what about useing a 4.2 landcruiser for a donor for all the mechanicals? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turbocharger Posted March 2, 2007 Share Posted March 2, 2007 There was a chap in the Series forum who had a 1.4? 1.9? Audi diesel in his Series 3 - he reckoned it flew because of so little weight, and was returning 40mpg plus... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SOA 93 Posted March 2, 2007 Share Posted March 2, 2007 LS1 for cost efficiency- pretty much waterproof and 350bhp and 420lb/ft out of the box- an adaptor will cost you in the region of £300 and works well with an LT230- elliot Mez runs an LT230 and around 550bhp with a twin turbo Chevy 350 and hasn't bust an LT230 yet That would be very nice ....... However if you're going to be driving this alot then cost of fuel might be an issue. I'd be looking at a BMW 3.0 D should be able to pick them up for around £1200 with ECU etc, then talk to Mr Fearn, his Dyno saw 600lb ft torque for his racer (twin turbo), as standard they come with a VGT, twin turbo's are available but only give more power at the top end. Andy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dollythelw Posted March 2, 2007 Share Posted March 2, 2007 JezI know. But I still fell kind of dirty. FB soiled? lol, you know it makes sense I've got a nice man with an V10 Viper lump.. hmm temptation Mmmm. last month there was a bloke with a 27 litre rolls-royce meteor engine in a rover sd1. nutcase back on topic though, what about useing a 4.2 landcruiser for a donor for all the mechanicals? is this the only possible way of making you car heavier other than machining a block out of depleteted unranium? Did anyone ever see any pics of that Audi lump installed in the series? it sounded a great conversion but I cant recall seeing a picture of it in situ... Will - hate to say it but the prospect of putting a new TGV in a car would horrify me personally, there are vastly more powerful and civilised diesels out there for less money - petrol lumps with distributerless ignition are no longer the farcical affair of old (easy Nige - they're still not like a dependable diesel) and going back to the LS1 you can hook the standard 4L60 to an LT230 so no issues there - an LT230 will put up with major greif without probs but you could go the Atlas 4 speed T case route (for less than the price of an underdrive) and have 4 ratios, the ability to do front or rear digs, peelouts and doughnuts, swap wheel sizes and keep whatever road speed you like just by shifting the lever and be safe in the knowledge that George Bush will evolve intelligence long before it could ever break.... rip ideas from other disciplines and countries - it opens all kinds of possibilties having said all that unless you are a spanner monkey and can fab OR have a hefty ability to write cheques - KISS, cheap and simple works well Nige - coffee spitting/keyboard incident, sweet graphic Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveG Posted March 2, 2007 Share Posted March 2, 2007 Having completed the only dlander in existence at the moment, i would stick with the landrover runnning gear from the donor car. it allowed me to avoid all thins SVA and the truck only needed a VIC it runs 300tdi with all the goodies to make it quick no water problems is now got its internal snorkle and pulls over the speed limit if you are so inclined. I think this is a very good point. Stick to a vehicle for chassis, axles, engine gearbox etc and you avoid SVA. PM Les Brock or search his posts if you want to know how much fun the prep for an SVA is. We all know how good V8 autos are to drive off-road, but if smo has to drive to and from events it's just not economical. When I used to take the Hybrid to Wales and back I could cope ok with being deaf from the Simex's but being 200 pounds lighter on fuel costs was not a easy to cope with. Especially knowing that it would have been at least 100 pounds less in a diesel. It soon adds up. Cheers Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
will_warne Posted March 2, 2007 Share Posted March 2, 2007 Will - hate to say it but the prospect of putting a new TGV in a car would horrify me personally, there are vastly more powerful and civilised diesels out there for less money - petrol lumps with distributerless ignition are no longer the farcical affair of old (easy Nige - they're still not like a dependable diesel) and going back to the LS1 you can hook the standard 4L60 to an LT230 so no issues there - an LT230 will put up with major greif without probs but you could go the Atlas 4 speed T case route (for less than the price of an underdrive) and have 4 ratios, the ability to do front or rear digs, peelouts and doughnuts, swap wheel sizes and keep whatever road speed you like just by shifting the lever and be safe in the knowledge that George Bush will evolve intelligence long before it could ever break.... rip ideas from other disciplines and countries - it opens all kinds of possibilties All true, Jez. However, at the time, I wanted an engine that'd go in with no fuss, gave good performance and, as it was a new engine, it'd be reliable. I did the conversion 2 and a half years ago and I still believe its a good choice for a mainly bolt on / work in progress truck. Having said all that, I doubt I'll build annother vehicle with a 2.8 in - the plans for a new road vehicle and the next comp truck are an LSx and, possibly, a Porsche flat 6 respectivly. FF, although I've killed a lot of drivetrain bits an LS1 would be worse if both were in standard tune. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lewis Posted March 2, 2007 Share Posted March 2, 2007 Eh? Do a search on here for EDIS. If I was building a new truck there's no way I'd fit the standard ignition, as so far as I know there aren't any other water related problems with the V8?Plenty of other reasons not to buy one, mind... They aren't that powerful out the box, and neither are they very reliable... I'm well aware of the merits of EDIS, however it takes only a cursory glance at the myriad posts by Rog, Nige et al to see that it is far from a straightforward conversion Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turbocharger Posted March 2, 2007 Share Posted March 2, 2007 a mainly bolt on / work in progress truck Fair play Will, you're not scared to throw your hat in the ring, are you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark90 Posted March 2, 2007 Share Posted March 2, 2007 Get a P38A DSE/DT as a donor ?Nice tunable 6-cylinder diesel, choice of manual or diesel. Even better if you swap the 2.5 for a 3.0 out of a bimmer, add a big intercooler and a chip and away you go, bloody quickly too Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted March 2, 2007 Share Posted March 2, 2007 I'm well aware of the merits of EDIS, however it takes only a cursory glance at the myriad posts by Rog, Nige et al to see that it is far from a strightforward conversion Out of the box EDIS is easy enough to do, the main arse with any of the dizzyless systems is retro-fitting them to a 40-year-old design of engine if you picked up a lump that was dizzyless to start with (EG LS1, K-series, Zetec, Cosworth) and arrived with coil packs and crank sensors already mounted it would be a far quicker job. Even quicker if someone else has done one before and can e-mail you the settings you need. There is the point that Nige, Jon and Geoff are among the first to fit EDIS to an RV8 and Rog is only the second chap I know of to try the direct coil drive (the first being Phil who wrote the code in the first place!), as with any development the first install takes 10x the effort of the second. Nige's engine is so specialised that he has had to develop his own spark & fuel settings from more standard ones, and Rog is the first guy I know of to run a stock RV8 with direct coil drive so has a bit of a hill to climb in working out all the settings that the EDIS module would take care of in an EDIS install. Once it's all smoothed out the info Rog will have will mean the next person has a far easier task ahead of them. Back to the subject at hand - from my understanding an LS1 wouldn't be too bad on fuel, certainly not in proportion to its power output, as the ECU is really clever. It shuts down cylinders when under low load and the mapping on it is very advanced, add to that the thing is smaller & lighter than an RV8 and it makes a hell of a lot of sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corrode Finger Posted March 2, 2007 Share Posted March 2, 2007 From a starting point, i think that Dlander, made a good point, get it built with a stock LR lump/ trans etc, and get it registered/ on the road/ SVA'd or whatever is required for your specific situation. Then spend time and effort looking at future options. To be fair, for most people, in most situations, the LR engines are perfectly fine, i for one will put my hands up and say that i will not be exploring the extremes of LR technological limits as the base truck has more ability than i have nerve. Big Wuss, maybe, but i am happy to stand by what i know is true for me at the moment. In the future, i may evolve, but you need a base point to work from, a position that is close to standard, to allow you to evolve the final engine, box, trans, axles, whetever to suit your style. How do you know that the LR gear will be pants in something that is not built, from what Dlander has said, the LR engine is fine, the damn truck is so light it needs no mad motors. Thats my 5p's worth, i will get back in my box and await pot shots!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lewis Posted March 2, 2007 Share Posted March 2, 2007 As CorrodeFinger pointed out on the bunfight thread, the Rover 220 lump has better specs than a 3.9 V8 and probably does better MPG than a TDi, but costs pennies even with a car attached and can be bolted to a LR gearbox with parts-bin stuff. The Ford Duratec/Zetec lumps are the same, better performance than any LR lump from "only" two litres, millions of them have been made and they run forever. Cosworths are cheap and adapter plates are out there. Then there's the VW TDi's, Audi 5-pots, Nissan Q35 V6 or the 200SX / Skyline lump which is good for 500bhp just by asking it nicely. The Rover T series idea I like a lot, good strong engines, lots of tuning parts available, ten-a-penny etc. Check out the rovertech.net forums for a guy I work with called Jimmy, built himself a 440bhp T series turbo, soon to have 550bhp courtesy of another 4 injectors, madness Nissan 200sx and Skyline do not use the same engine, one is 4cyl 2litre, the other 2.6litre 6cyl. 200sx lumps seem to like breaking the valves up when they hit 100k miles. Link Lewis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted March 2, 2007 Share Posted March 2, 2007 Nissan 200sx and Skyline do not use the same engine, one is 4cyl 2litre, the other 2.6litre 6cyl. I know dat - I meant 200SX or Skyline as the SX lump is a skyline one with two cylinders lopped off. Both can be had up to silly HP and there's quite a few crashed ones around If I had the time/monye I'd be looking at a Skyline 2.6 as it would complete my classic restoration (the 109 was originally a 2.6 6cyl ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turbocharger Posted March 2, 2007 Share Posted March 2, 2007 quite a few crashed ones around ...which leads nicely to - with plenty of horsepower, you'll look at the transmission but what about the suspension and brakes? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dollythelw Posted March 2, 2007 Share Posted March 2, 2007 hmm aluminium, 5.3 V8, £1350, 5 miles from new and only 200 calories per slice? fed up of troublesome excess petrol? try the problem solving 8.1 litres of planet consuming Silverado, running on shade grown organic fair trade dolphins and massive quantities of sun shine bringing "happy fuel" - who cares? its the biggest toy in the box and weighs in at £2100 with 1900 miles on the clock yeeeehaa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corrode Finger Posted March 2, 2007 Share Posted March 2, 2007 Yes Skylines produce BIG power, they also need BIG BIG bucks on the tuning parts!! ie: a mate had a 550bhp (dyno printout) 1997 Skyline, had done 183mph(vid clip). The problem was, this engine and car had nigh on £10k spent on it in tuning, and that excludes the lump. Also, there are different versions of the Skyline engine, the cheap ones are not the silly bhp ones. Basically to get legendary power out of anything, you got to spend big bucks. Anyway, some of these engines might do more BHP and torque, but are they in the similar parts of the rev range? What i mean is 220lbft torque on a V8 at 2200rpm is good in a 4x4, but 280lbft torque in another motor but at 4000rpm, pos bad. You start to mess with the characteristics of the existing engines that LR have developed that we all use when offroad. Masses of revs is usually a bad idea to gain traction, which is what you can achieve with different engines with apparent better stats. In my opinion the 'improved' bhp and torque ought to be greater than that you are replacing but at a similar point in the rev range. Therefore you get a gain. This is one of the downsides of using a modern car turbo diesel potentially. Like the TDCi ford lumps, you get more torque but its all revvy, which is poor for a LR. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted March 2, 2007 Share Posted March 2, 2007 You can spend big money on any engine, and people do. But the proper Skyline lump is a real beastie - it was made for the jap version of touring cars - to be eligible they have to make a few road cars too so the lump was basically de-tuned to 280bhp and punted out. There is a gentleman's agreement in japan that they don't sell anything over 280bhp, but with very minimal outlay (EG a chip and a tweak of the boost) you can up the skyline lump's power very easily. PPC had a feature on them a while back and the internals are all race-spec and capable of putting up with massive BHP/boost etc. without having to delve into new cranks, pistons, or even blocks and heads, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corrode Finger Posted March 2, 2007 Share Posted March 2, 2007 I agree, but disagree, but thats opinion, its a whole other debate. Also what is considered 'cheap tuning'? The thing is, as i have just said, where in the rev range is all this massive power? If its at 8000rpm, it aint much use in a landy, you need the 'grunt' factor. Big power at big revs= big loss of traction, esp offroad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dollythelw Posted March 2, 2007 Share Posted March 2, 2007 hmm, Sirs looking for low down grunt? Brand new, £2900, fully dressed, 350hp as standard, retune the ECM for a fairly respectable 500bhp and 1000ft/lbs, laugh as the rest of the landrove transmission folds up like the legs of a dying fly chugga lugga diesel Im in a good mood, toys are turning up yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corrode Finger Posted March 2, 2007 Share Posted March 2, 2007 hmm, Sirs looking for low down grunt? Brand new, £2900, fully dressed, 350hp as standard, retune the ECM for a fairly respectable 500bhp and 1000ft/lbs, laugh as the rest of the landrove transmission folds up like the legs of a dying fly chugga lugga diesel Im in a good mood, toys are turning up yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay! Ooooooooh............ wos that ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheRecklessEngineer Posted March 2, 2007 Share Posted March 2, 2007 Hmmm...that'd be nice in the front of my disco Might have to keep it standard though... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geoffbeaumont Posted March 3, 2007 Share Posted March 3, 2007 We all know how good V8 autos are to drive off-road, but if smo has to drive to and from events it's just not economical. When I used to take the Hybrid to Wales and back I could cope ok with being deaf from the Simex's but being 200 pounds lighter on fuel costs was not a easy to cope with. Especially knowing that it would have been at least 100 pounds less in a diesel. It soon adds up. An alternative take on this would be to fit an LPG kit, have the V8 and roughly diesel equivalent pence/mile fuel costs. Obviously you have to factor in the cost of the kit and installing it, but second hand kits can be picked up cheap as long as you're happy with a venturi system, especially if you buy them still on a donor vehicle. Depending on the vehicle it may be possible to fit the tanks with no loss of load space, too (my rangie has underslung tanks in place of the original petrol tank, and a small petrol tank in the wing). If you're going for ultimate reliability, though, I'd only consider an injected LPG kit, not venturi. I'm well aware of the merits of EDIS, however it takes only a cursory glance at the myriad posts by Rog, Nige et al to see that it is far from a straightforward conversion On the contrary, fitting EDIS is very straightforward. As Fridge said, there's a bit of a penalty for being on the bleeding edge, but as far as the physical installation went the only reason mine has taken a long time is because I've had more pressing things to worry about on the rangie... If I was able to do my own fabrication I could do another one in a day. Getting the spark maps right takes a little longer, but it isn't hard to achieve an acceptable map and once one person with a similar engine publishes their map you no longer have to worry about this side of it. My biggest problem was the total lack of information available on what an ideal LPG ignition curve should look like (for any engine, not just an RV8), which has reduced me to trial and error. EDIS isn't a total magic bullet - it will render your ignition totally impervious to water, but there are still bits that can go wrong. Mine seems to be the source of my current misfire problems, for reasons as yet unknown. I suspect a failed coil pack, which can be bought for only about £15 new (mine are scrapyard ones, which seems to be a false economy). What Rog is doing is far more on the bleeding edge than EDIS - although even there, once Rog has his truck running nicely anyone with a similar engine can get up and running very easily if they can wheedle a copy of his configuration out of him Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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