western Posted August 1, 2007 Share Posted August 1, 2007 Hmm I'd do it the other way round (NATO hitch takes the load, JATE rings for backup) but it's a good idea. but using the nato to take the load means putting all the load forces through one point [admittedly via 4 bolts] using the jates means the forces are hopefully equally spread between the 2 chassis rails, so effectivly half load on each side . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
landybear Posted August 1, 2007 Author Share Posted August 1, 2007 Criky this recovery business is complicated. Need a degree in Physics to understand loads and forces!! I have ordered genuine JATEs for front of the 90 just need a bridle and some shackles now. Any recommendations on where to buy from?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BogMonster Posted August 1, 2007 Share Posted August 1, 2007 but using the nato to take the load means putting all the load forces through one point [admittedly via 4 bolts] using the jates means the forces are hopefully equally spread between the 2 chassis rails, so effectivly half load on each side . True but with a tow hitch the loads are still indirectly spread between the chassis rails and on a proper LR the crossmember is plenty strong enough (not on Td5 age I know!) and the 4 bolts total about 22 tons tensile strength plus I think a NATO is about 24 tons breaking strain so there isn't a weakness there Main advantage for me is ease/speed of use, important if you are towing some rubbish Mitsubishi every 5 minutes Neither method is wrong and both are fine. Fitting a NATO hitch with stud bar, now that's wrong Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hybrid_From_Hell Posted August 1, 2007 Share Posted August 1, 2007 Mine seems to work nicely off just the front tow bar - the one occasion it's had to be towed that stood up well to the job and got it out of trouble. If this is a towball bolted through a std front bumper forget it, totrally unsuitable This is one of my pet soap box subjects so I will try to stay calm and chilled whilst I rant the forces involved in recovery go up in proportion to how badly stuck you are, and don't think that the "that will do" recovery point will, Chris Watts has some pics he may post of "will do" recovery gear DFor a std 90, I would suggest REAR 2x Jate Rings, and a D ring that bolts via 4 bolts to the crossmember with a SPREADER Plate behind it, if you don't have / put a spreader plate behind it best to not have one at all than to fit one without if you do all three you'll have a selction FRONT D rings as per the series phonto are fine, make sure that these (any any otgher bolts) are marked at 8.7T or better still 10.9T, NOTHING Lower than 8.s, and make sure even on the D rings a plate to ease the spread and load, and dog the bolts up F Tight ebeywhere, then recheck after recovery....if thye have strentch a lot investigate ! Other than D rings I have seen Jates fitted to the fronts, any sort of winch bumper often provides decent recovery units, and make sure that the silly 1 bolt pear shaped tie downs that LR fit are simply taken off before some muppet tries to connect to them A Towbar fitted to a front bumper even with a spreader plate is absolutely lethal and not fit for purpose, a Rear Towball on a rear cross member is OK, but a- it can pull and twist b- the recovery rope has a habit of popping off at the worst moment NATO is another good option - again spreader plate - plate needs to be 4mm min 6mm best Buy also some decent RATED shackles 4.75T minimum, and if they aint marked walk away, 6T or *T are bigger yes and OTT but have more space to shove in strops snatch blocjks etc, which can be useful You need I would say 3 x 4.75 T Shackles, a bridle, a 3m treee strop can also be useful, and either a KERR Rope or decent suitable recovery rope. HTH Nige Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BogMonster Posted August 1, 2007 Share Posted August 1, 2007 landybear, check out the Recovery links in the index at the top of our LR4x4 Tech Archive forum here Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
western Posted August 1, 2007 Share Posted August 1, 2007 Criky this recovery business is complicated. Need a degree in Physics to understand loads and forces!! I have ordered genuine JATEs for front of the 90 just need a bridle and some shackles now. Any recommendations on where to buy from?? get mine from Swindon lifting, I'm sure Les H or Diesel_Jim will pop up the address, most of mine are green pin shackles rated at 3.25t & 4.75t, Crosby use red pins in there's for the same ratings & are stamped 'Crosby' I have are pair of their 4.75t reds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JST Posted August 1, 2007 Share Posted August 1, 2007 Just a minor note on JATE rings if your buying them and intend to fit a a steering guard at a later date gets one swide enough to accomodate the steering guard as well. Alternatively you can get a HD bumper with built in recovery points. i agree in that a two bar on the front bumper it totally unsuitable and IIRC DEW110 didn't mention the circumstances in which this hitch was been used, judging by a recent reply in the Billing GOTF thread and use or low and diff lock i wouldn't of thought it was been used for recovery at a play day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest dew110CSW Posted August 1, 2007 Share Posted August 1, 2007 If this is a towball bolted through a std front bumper forget it, totrally unsuitable It's in the front bumper with a spreader plate that goes behind and is bolted to where the chassis arms meet the bumper. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hybrid_From_Hell Posted August 2, 2007 Share Posted August 2, 2007 It's in the front bumper with a spreader plate that goes behind and is bolted to where the chassis arms meet the bumper. Still not suitable Better that it is bolted there and not in the middle of the bumper which a lot of people do thinking it the business. But, at the end of the day the bumper thickness is too thin to withstand heavy recovery, and it will deform - even with a spreader plate behind it, the recovery point is still only as strong as the weakest part of it - and thats the bumper. Most winch bumpers are 5/6mm plate and stong, a 90 / def front bumper is not, and as such bolting whatever to it isn't up to the job Nige Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBeastie Posted August 2, 2007 Share Posted August 2, 2007 Have been reading thread with interest since I need to start thinking this way too. Is a bridle the same thing as a strop? Or is it something completely different? I currently have Jate rings at the front and a towbar at the back - couldn't see anywhere to put Jate rings! I had been thinking of getting rope and have now extended the shopping list (seems to happen every time) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
western Posted August 2, 2007 Share Posted August 2, 2007 A strop [of not these than 3 tonne SWL, normally coloured Yellow, can be used as a bridle between 2 attachment points] 1st -- ear jate rings on my 110, note I slightly moddified the tow hitch brace arms that attch to the chassis, so they clear the fuel tank & turned them over/swapped sides to make them fit] 2nd -- front jate rings 3rd -- the tow hitch brace arm [note the scallopped area to clear the fuel tank fit the rear jates using either the existing transporter ring plate as a spacer or use suitable M10 plain washers to take up the gap between the jate ring & chassis, on my 110 the gap is filled by the tow hitch brace arm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBeastie Posted August 2, 2007 Share Posted August 2, 2007 Great Will have a look tomorrow (or perhaps the weekend) and see if I can find similar on the 90. If so then another pair of Jate rings, a yellow 3m strop and two rated shackles to add to the rope! Malcy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
western Posted August 2, 2007 Share Posted August 2, 2007 Yep, that should see you good if/when you or mates get stuck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hybrid_From_Hell Posted August 2, 2007 Share Posted August 2, 2007 Yep, that should see you good if/when you or mates get stuck. Its always I think a good idea to have someone use YOUR kit when they recover you. Thats way at least you know the shackle is rated, the strop or rope not knackered etc etc Sadly I often even check out THEIR recovery points and have been known to say "no Thanks" Somewhere in the loft is a pic from the 80s. A RR stuck was being recovered by a 90, the 90 placed a KERR rope on .............and "Took Off" The studding holding the NATO Hitch on "Gave up"............ The picture shows the rear window of the RR smashed, The passenger Headrest "removed" and the Nato 'embedded' in the dashboard, ........................ the passenger had some seconds before got out to take a pic DO NOT EVER underestimate the forces involved Nige Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
western Posted August 2, 2007 Share Posted August 2, 2007 I 100% agree, if I'm doing the recovering or being recovered I prefer to use my kit as I know it's absolutly on top of any job I need it for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest dew110CSW Posted August 2, 2007 Share Posted August 2, 2007 I'll never forget the Video of a Recovery of a very stuck & wet 90 using a tow rope attached to the back of a hybrid, then suddenly theres a twang and the rear cross member of the hybrid skims across the water at a guy stood on the 90! (Been trying to find the vid, sure it was on Youtube but can't) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kim Horsevad Posted August 2, 2007 Share Posted August 2, 2007 When using a bridle please remember that the angle between the "legs" of the bridle should be 60 degrees in order to halve the load on each of the attachment points. When the angle gets greater than 60 degrees the load on each of the attachment points will grow. At 120 degrees the load on each of the attachment points will equal the load on the connecting point on the birdle. At greater angles the load on each of the attachment points will be greater than the load on the connecting point on the birdle. Direction of the load will also be changed at the greater angles. All of this can be calculated in details using vector math. As said before, do not underestimate the forces involved in serious recovery. Personally I would never trust a JATE ring for serious work, nor do I trust ANYTHING which is bolted or welded to the rear crossmember - I have seen to many of such crossmembers come flying after serious recovery work. If helping another truck, where there may be doubt about the quality of the recovery points on this truck, then wrap a piece of chain around the axle tube (taking care not to damage brake pipes) and use this as recovery point. Yes this can involve some digging.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hybrid_From_Hell Posted August 3, 2007 Share Posted August 3, 2007 Chain ? Your prob now going to say rated chain, the amount of times at events (esp play days) where some rusty manky chain appears from nowhere terrifies me, other unsuitable items *other than the silly halfords recovery rope which just goes "Ping" on the 1sr tug that I have seen are (in no particular order of stupidity" Steel cable Winch cable for snatch towing in reverse - yes really lifting lines (chains with a cloth outer) ropes tied onto bullbars a highlift tied to a treee and then connected to a winch and a strop as too short a cable (a all time classic) Winch stalled ?, then get your mate to jump up and down on the cable - I have video of this somewhere but whenever I see chains come out at events I go cold. An arguement then starts shortly afterwards, followed by said chain being placed back into owners truck and then a strop shown by owner as well as a strop used Nige Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gromit Posted August 3, 2007 Share Posted August 3, 2007 Last weekend I witnessed a disco stuck, up to its axles, being pulled out using a KERR attached to one of the tie down points on the back of an Mitsubishi L200. Looked a lot like a bit of coat hanger. I stood miles away while this was being done. I've no idea why it didn't break :o :o :o Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kim Horsevad Posted August 3, 2007 Share Posted August 3, 2007 Chain ? ohmy.gifNige I understand your point, but I actually find chain has a lot of uses off-road. (And I am talking about good-quality, rated and approved) chain. I you cant trust rated and approved chain then you cant trust rated shackles either. A chain which breaks will not go flying around, The chain is totally static, so will just drop down to the ground in the event of something breaking. Yes there can be problems when connecting chain to dynamic rope - if there is a breakage in the rope the stored energy might send the chain flying. (This is the reason for wrapping the chain around the axle tube in the above example. If the dynamic rope breaks, no chain will come flying, as it is wrapped around the axle.) Therefore, if I am to help someone, where there is any doubt about the quality of the recovery points on his truck, I then to use this method. Connect thewinch rope to BOTH ends of the chain and winch away very slowly. To use a hi-lift as a winch also requires some length of chain (or some clever use of prusik knots...) If you are marshalling some off-road event I quite well understand why you would tend to band such items, as there is now practical way of knowing (with certanity) just how much the guy doing the recovery knows about what he is doing... My situation is a little different... When I go off-roading it is mostly done alone, and mostly with the purpose of collecting some kind of load form a more or less inaccesible place in some muddy forrest terrain... This situation is very different form a competition enviroment... There are no time constraints, no bystanders, and no fools to jump around and do silly things while meaing to help.... In such situations the reliability of chain and steel wire rope just cant be beaten (at least from my point of view...) I use 11mm high quality steel wire rope in my winch. Steel wire rope can be bought in many kind of qualities, some of wich are totally static. When the wire breaks it just drop down to the ground like chain. Only once I have totally miscalculated a situation (pulling a big! tree down with a hydraulic winch on my 4wd tractor). The results from this miscalculations were (among others) a high-quality 16mm steel wire rope breaking, and a 4 tonne 4wd tractor flying selveral meters backwards (before the breakage occured)... I was in the cab of the tractor at the moment - it was kind of scary... But even then, there were no big steel objects flying around. The remains of the steel wire rope just dropped to the ground. Be safe! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hybrid_From_Hell Posted August 3, 2007 Share Posted August 3, 2007 ......as there is now practical way of knowing (with certanity) just how much the guy doing the recovery knows about what he is doing....... Er I beg to differ there is a way - stand back and watch for around 2 mins You will then be 99% certain if a complete muppet which many sadly are Whilst thats not an issue - as all have to learn its the "Attitude" thats gets me every time...... "Wot ?.... Its a great shackle mate - given it some real stick - see here how its gone and all bent and that...and it still F works......... " ......was one of my particular favorites ....... As you say P&P days and recovery by entrants - when you see a nice rusty chain come out - you can be "Pretty certain" its not a rated proper jobbie..... Nige Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gazelle Posted August 3, 2007 Share Posted August 3, 2007 On the subject of shackles, when buying my recover kit, I looked for "tested" shackles, and found some at First Four Offroad which I bought. see Towing page at First Four They did not come with any certification, but the pins are all blued. I seem to remember a comment on another thread about the need for certification. For sensible safety, do these count as Rated, or do I need to look for something else? Martin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hybrid_From_Hell Posted August 3, 2007 Share Posted August 3, 2007 On the subject of shackles, when buying my recover kit, I looked for "tested" shackles, and found some at First Four Offroad which I bought. see Towing page at First FourThey did not come with any certification, but the pins are all blued. I seem to remember a comment on another thread about the need for certification. For sensible safety, do these count as Rated, or do I need to look for something else? Martin The shackle on the link shown then in the picture has writing cast into the shackle, this will say Balh balh SWL 4.75T or somethuing similar - these then are "Tested". Non Tested ones have nothing on the, sometimes shackles have it stamped into the surface, both are fine, I have never ever had a certificate with any of the tested shackles I have bought I am however unsure of the SS bolty on bit I am not saying that its no good, I am saying I don't know, didn't think SS was a strong as decent steel ?...and I have a personal dislike of the swivelly recovery points that in effect have only the One Bolt , I have seen 2 "Part copmpany" under load, but they had been horribly abused and had slop where they went into the bumpers. Anyway hope this clarifies re the shackles nige Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
western Posted August 3, 2007 Share Posted August 3, 2007 Haven't any test certificates for my green & red pin rated shackles either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark90 Posted August 3, 2007 Share Posted August 3, 2007 Point already covered, should have read full thread Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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