Gromit Posted October 3, 2007 Share Posted October 3, 2007 I've some play at the top of the swivel housing, such that the housing can move in and out about 0.5-1mm at the top of the swivel ball. Can this play be removed by removing shims from under the top swivel pin? thanks, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Les Henson Posted October 3, 2007 Share Posted October 3, 2007 If you have shims in there then remove one at a time until the play has gone. If you have no shims, then you have to replace the bearings. Les. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gromit Posted October 3, 2007 Author Share Posted October 3, 2007 Perfect - Thank you Les Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Sparkes Posted October 4, 2007 Share Posted October 4, 2007 Oh Dear, I'm going to be in trouble again!! The shims affect the vertical spacing of the swivel pin, which bears down on a small paxolin type pad within the upper bearing. As this pad wears, so the friction built into the assembly decreases, and the effort required to turn the swivel pin decreases to below the specified limit. The damping effect of the friction becomes so small that any wheel shimmy is not damped out. To correct the effects of this wear you remove shims, which increases the clamping pressure of the pin on the pad. However, you clearly state "the housing can move in and out about 0.5-1mm at the top of the swivel ball". Now I take that 'in and out' to be sideways movement, not vertical movement. If it is sideways movement then the cylinder (bearing) surrounding the pin, and possibly the pin itself, is worn. Removing shims won't cure that. In my limited experience, overhaul kits include new cylinders and new pads, but I don't recall if the pin is included or a separate purchase. Note that the upper bearing is a press fit in the swivel. Perhaps not the answer you wanted. Cheers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Les Henson Posted October 4, 2007 Share Posted October 4, 2007 You are refferring to a Railko bush David. Twin taper roller swivels are a bit different. Les. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turbocharger Posted October 4, 2007 Share Posted October 4, 2007 David, By my understanding the swivel is a taper to accomodate lateral movement, although probably not enough of a taper to take out 1mm of play! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Sparkes Posted October 4, 2007 Share Posted October 4, 2007 Ok, But from the original post, how did either of you 'know' that it isn't a Railko bush? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Les Henson Posted October 4, 2007 Share Posted October 4, 2007 Educated guess! Les. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turbocharger Posted October 4, 2007 Share Posted October 4, 2007 I asked Les... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Sparkes Posted October 4, 2007 Share Posted October 4, 2007 JC. Guessing game is it, I thought this was a technical forum, where fact is king! I suppose Guessing ties in with Range Rover articles buried in the International Forum, instead of the Range Rover forum, and the same Air Suspension article filed in the Tech Archive under Misc rather than Suspension. In future I'll know not to bother attempting to contribute, I'm obviously too far out of step. Cheers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bull Bar Cowboy Posted October 4, 2007 Share Posted October 4, 2007 Hey, I’m with David on this one………….. It is usually fraught with more detail than just removing some shims…………….. often the shims of a different thickness are required to get the preload anything near right. To be honest I have not had great success in just re shimming, especially with the taper bearing swivel housing …………….. often the (as David rightly says) the pin wears and no amount of shimming will cure the problem. To compound the issue further, both the lower and upper pins sometimes has a little wear on each …………. Also unless you keep upward pressure on the swivel housing all the oil / grease comes raining out as the top bearing is released and the swivel ball moves within its seal …….. often that seal tends never to work again………….. I would have thought that 1mm was excessive to the point of a complete swivel bearing rebuild…………. No expensive and probably quicker in the long run My experience suggests that if it is a railco then you may get away with shimming if the pin is perfect (which I doubt) …………. If its twin taper bearings then bearing / pin replacement is often the only way forward. Ian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gromit Posted October 4, 2007 Author Share Posted October 4, 2007 Thanks for everyone's input. Does anyone know what year they changed from a railko to twin taper? My parts catalog for 1987 onwards, doesn't indicate if it is railko or not. Given the age of the truck, I'd suspect there is a bit of wear everywhere. I've no problem overhauling the swivel, just need to get the bits before I start. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark90 Posted October 4, 2007 Share Posted October 4, 2007 I think the 90/110 when from Railko to twin bearing when they introduced the 300tdi/24 spline axles/wide radius arms, but there is always some cross over with the LR parts bin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turbocharger Posted October 4, 2007 Share Posted October 4, 2007 To clarify my comment before David spat his dummy, I thought the Railko bush was tapered and shimmed to control friction and lateral tolerance - seems I might be wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Les Henson Posted October 4, 2007 Share Posted October 4, 2007 I suppose Guessing ties in with Range Rover articles buried in the International Forum, instead of the Range Rover forum, The thread isn't buried anywhere - it's copied into the tech archive. As I already explained to you once David - I put tech threads in the int forum so that the maximum number of people will perhaps notice it and at least remember that there is a thread covering their problem in the future. and the same Air Suspension article filed in the Tech Archive under Misc rather than Suspension Well perhaps White90 either put it there for a reason or made a genuine mistake - a pm to him would be productive I think. Tech threads are in the archive covering both railko and twin taper roller bearings - Gromit has used the tech archive on previous occasions, so I'm sure if he needs detailed information on the work involved he can use the relevant thread. Les. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GBMUD Posted October 4, 2007 Share Posted October 4, 2007 Can I squabble too? My 2004 110 suffers from some (considerable) wheel wobble/oscilation between 40mph and 60mph. I plan to change the steering damper but I am assuming that there must be some play in the swivel bearings too. So, what type of bearings are fitted to mine? I assume that it is the later type with the radial bearing below the top pin, so does one adjust this with shims too? Is it a Railko bush otherwise? I presume that with a radial bearing there cannot be a tapered roller bearing in the top. Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark90 Posted October 4, 2007 Share Posted October 4, 2007 Chris if you haven't got any free play, rock wheel like checking for wheel bearing play but just top to bottom not side to side, then it may just be that there isn't enough 'resistance' to turning. In this case removing a shim or two should allow you to set the correct 'resitance' (14lb on the TRE hole rings a bell, but I just do it by feel). This will work to alter the resistance with both railko bush or taper bearings. Your 110 should be taper bearings. You can tell if it's taper bearing or railko bush at the top by the size of the 'pin head', the railko bush one is bigger, I think that's the right way round Oh and with axle stand under axle, put a jack under the hub to take the weight so when you remove the top pin the hub won't drop down spilling all the oil (may not be an issue if you have grease filled swivels) and possibly damaging the seal. Also the top pin comes out a bit easier if the weight of the hub is taken on a jack. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GBMUD Posted October 4, 2007 Share Posted October 4, 2007 Thanks Mark, good advice. Just been looking in the downloadable manuals but they all seem to refer to different (300Tdi) models and the 2002 supplement does not mention swivels. Was it only the ABS axles that had the radial bearing in the top swivel? I guess I will find out when I take mine apart. Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V8 Freak Posted October 4, 2007 Share Posted October 4, 2007 My 2004 110 suffers from some (considerable) wheel wobble/oscilation between 40mph and 60mph. Sounds a bit like my Panhard rod woes Chris..... I know you will have eliminated that choice but gave me the opportunity to mention my 100% record of vehicle problems when out driving with you ! (I'll be bringing spare panhard to Lakes because I know I'm going to blow it ! ) Neil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gromit Posted October 4, 2007 Author Share Posted October 4, 2007 You can tell if it's taper bearing or railko bush at the top by the size of the 'pin head', the railko bush one is bigger, I think that's the right way round OK, given mine's a 91 200tdi, I guess it's a Railko. I'll pull the top swivel pin to be sure before I get new shiny bits for it; Then that'll be the argument settled......................... or will it :P Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paintman Posted October 4, 2007 Share Posted October 4, 2007 Always amuses me to see a dolly go for a flight on the various forums. The posters on these forums are doing it out of the kindness of their hearts and are not getting paid to do it. Ok so sometimes they get it wrong, but usually the info - esp les's with the photos - is top quality. And some of those asking questions on the forums have no idea what they've got on their cars or don't put any info in about the car itself. You COULD of course always go and BUY a factory workshop manual for your vehicle............... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark90 Posted October 4, 2007 Share Posted October 4, 2007 Thanks Mark, good advice. Maybe I should keep that, or maybe get it printed on a t-shirt Was it only the ABS axles that had the radial bearing in the top swivel? Now this may not be gospel, it's just my limited experince/findings. Early 90/110 had railko bush. 300tdi on have taper bearings, other axle changes here too, wider radius arms, 24 spline diffs. I think the swivel pin change came in with the 200/300tdi change over. RRC had taper bearings from much earlier, mid 80's axles had then I think, certainly lates 80's, not sure about earlier RRC axles, maybe they all did, I don't know. Also RRC had wider radius arms much earlier than 90/110. Disco, I think they tended to use axles more aligned with the RRC than the 90/110 of the same vintage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Les Henson Posted October 4, 2007 Share Posted October 4, 2007 The taper roller type swivel pin is only about 12mm dia, whereas the railko type is around 20 - so you wouldn't have to Lift it out very far to determine what you have. Les. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
western Posted October 4, 2007 Share Posted October 4, 2007 front swivels upto chassis KA930455 uses housing swivel pin FRC2916 ( IIRC this is the rialko bush) & Swivel pin FRC3511 --------------- from -------- KA930456 uses taper roller bearing 606666 & Swivel pin FTC2882 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
101nut Posted October 4, 2007 Share Posted October 4, 2007 RRC had taper bearings from much earlier, mid 80's axles had then I think, certainly lates 80's, not sure about earlier RRC axles, maybe they all did, I don't know. Early RR axles were taper roller as well. AndyG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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