Steve 90 Posted April 10, 2008 Share Posted April 10, 2008 A standard propane bottle wouldn't pass the LPG industry regs for fitting to a road car, nor would it pass an MOT Are you sure about that! There is nothing in the testers manual about it and if there is no RFR given then you cant fail it. It does not come into the MOT. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smo Posted April 10, 2008 Share Posted April 10, 2008 So they dont test an LPG system as part of the fuel system in an MOT? Either way it wouldn't pass the LPg fitting regs, as its not designed or certified for the purpose, this alone would send insurance companies running, and there is the VOSA/Fuel tax problem mentioned earlier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
will_warne Posted April 10, 2008 Share Posted April 10, 2008 Are you sure about that! There is nothing in the testers manual about it and if there is no RFR given then you cant fail it. It does not come into the MOT. I'm with Steve here - the regs for standard bottles are very high and they are very tough. As you correctly say, smo, LPG = liquified petroleum gas = volitile hydrocarbons that are gaseous at RTP. That means Methane, ethane, propane, butane. As far as the MOT implications go - why not just take the tank out? Easy with a standard bottle. There was a Tdi Disco that was being raced using LPG injection - that must have met the MSA rules. I wonder what it did? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
willfromsussex Posted June 1, 2008 Share Posted June 1, 2008 I just bought a diesel 4.2 Patrol with Propane injection on it. Its massively over injecting though, and when you flick the switch on, it gives about 0.2s of rapid aceleration, then a horrid pinking/really loud diesel clattering noise, so i haven't dared leave it on for more than one second as it really does sound like the enigne is about to explode. However i just did 550 miles in the vehicle yesterday towing a car trailer and manged to give it little blips of the switch just to give it a whiff of a fraction of a second each time, and boy does it help the old girl up hills, overtaking lorries etc. Really must get the system fixed , can't see where you adjust the mixture, and also the regulator has me baffled as I can't see how on earth it tells how much air is going into the engine (no vacuum line going to the regualator like on a petrol car) Might ring one or to local LPG fitting places to see what they say. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stobbie Posted June 2, 2008 Share Posted June 2, 2008 Do you use a vaporiser with these systems, just like with a petrol engine? How do you adjust te mixture, I think you can't measure the exhaust gasses with equipmet for a petrol/lpg system. I'm very interested in building a LPG system to my 300TDI, not for more power, but for better economics and better for the environment. Just don't know where to start... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest diesel_jim Posted June 2, 2008 Share Posted June 2, 2008 Do you use a vaporiser with these systems, just like with a petrol engine? How do you adjust te mixture, I think you can't measure the exhaust gasses with equipmet for a petrol/lpg system.I'm very interested in building a LPG system to my 300TDI, not for more power, but for better economics and better for the environment. Just don't know where to start... I've got an Allisport kit here i bought via Pete @ Bell auto's, it has a regulator thats controlled by the boost pressure... more boost = more gas. i'll take some piccies if you're interested. Jim.... not got any news from Andy yet re: the kits. sorry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MECCANO Posted June 3, 2008 Share Posted June 3, 2008 i'll take some piccies if you're interested. Yes please, especially the bit that regulates it all!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigSi110 Posted June 3, 2008 Share Posted June 3, 2008 From memory, the Allisport kit works out to around £800 fully fitted with a refillable tank. The price drops a bit without the tank, using a normal propane cylinder. Fitting is only about £80. Damn, I'm really tempted, but it's a lotta money and I haven't done the number-crunching to see if it's justifiable. Has anyone done the payback calcs for theirs yet? Anyway, guess which stand I'll be visiting at Billing... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nas90 Posted June 3, 2008 Share Posted June 3, 2008 I've added LPG to my 2.8tgv. Best move I've ever done. Economy has gone from 24mpg to 32.5!The power increase is fantastic. I've got it set at 15% LPG mix. I also added a rev counter to make sure I now don't over rev it and an EGT gaugue is going in to keep an eye on things. Not a cheap extra but on a truck doing 50,000miles a year, well worth it (I hope) I'm surprised that you obtained such a decrease in consumption, I was going to write be careful about increased fuel consumption! Need to take into account the LPG cost but at 15% and 54 pence per litre not excessive With the LPG or Calor or Butane or whatever you will NOT be allowed to travel on the Channel Tunnel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest diesel_jim Posted June 4, 2008 Share Posted June 4, 2008 With the LPG or Calor or Butane or whatever you will NOT be allowed to travel on the Channel Tunnel is that the same as if a camper-van went across as well? do they have to eject all gas cylinders too? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowie69 Posted June 4, 2008 Share Posted June 4, 2008 Only applies to tanks which do not have a manual shut off valve, the fact the tank solenoid clunks shut everytime the engine isn't running clearly isn't enough for them Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrism Posted June 4, 2008 Share Posted June 4, 2008 Some interesting reading going on here. I have a friend that is selling a lpg kit that he used on his V8 rangy. Would this be suitable for my 200tdi? Its a challenge truck purely and would just be looking for more power so if i fitted it i would take it somewhere knowlegeable and get them to completely set the engine up ie fuel ,smoke screw and boost. The tank is fairly big on it so i would be looking for a smaller one but what sort of size would be suitable so i had enough for say 3 days off roading at a time, baring in mind you dont use much fuel at all when off roading probably 1/8 of a tank. The lpg would be turned on as soon as it came off the trailer. My initial idea was to have an extra electric fuel pump on a button on my gearstick which would boost the fuel pressure slightly, i havent had much experience of it and dont know whether it would work but was going to have a play and see. It would probably take a bit of fiddling to find a good set up so i have enough power without boost, but not giving it too much when the pump is on. This lpg seems a lot better way of getting a few more ponies. I presume that it isnt going to have a major effect on reliability as it burns cleanly. In combination with a full witdth allisport intercooler, adjusted boost and fuel i think i will have a significant increase in power? Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrism Posted June 7, 2008 Share Posted June 7, 2008 Just got back from the Land Rover World show today and have had a good chat with a nice fella from Allisport about the propane injection. It has answered all my questions and am liking the sound of the kit! Basically the petrol LPG kit is useless as i dont need a tank anywhere as big and its a different system anyway. No vapoursier is used as the gas is drawn from the top of a propane tank so its already in vapour from. Bottle wise the kit doesnt come with one, but is set up to take a bbq style bottle, i like this idea as you can have as big or as little a tank as you require. The system runs off the boost pressure, this can be tweaked up along with the fuel pump as the propane acts as a catlyst and the fuel burns very cleanly with little effect on EGT. I would be setting it up purely for power as my truck is purely off road and can expect a 20% power increase over standard. I should imagine it is still possible to use a petrol LPG tank and vapouriser, but you still need the fancy valve to control the gas but i like the idea of being able to just fit a 3.9kg bottle of propane somewhere on the truck rather than a massive tank. A 3.9kg tank will apparently last me far longer than i need anyway! Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MECCANO Posted June 9, 2008 Share Posted June 9, 2008 I was thinking how you could easily regulate the propane with boost electronically. The only problem i can see is the speed at which you would want the device to operate would mean that something like a solenoid couldn’t be used, however i came across propane injectors. Does anyone know anything about propane/lpg injectors that are electronically driven? You can purchase pressure sensing devices to measure the boost for under £10. This can then be used to drive a pulse width modulation circuit, which would increase its squirt duration as the pressure picks up. Its a crude way of doing it... so might not work. It is heavy dependant on the gas mixing by its own accord/ turbulence so that there is steady flow into the engine, an not surges of high-low propane quantity. This would depend on the duration of squirts and the space between them. Any thoughts? or is this a no-go'er Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nicks90 Posted June 10, 2008 Share Posted June 10, 2008 [words spilling out of brain mode on] could you not use some form of diaphram regulator - basically to act the same as the diaphram in the injection pump? Boost pressure from the turbo acts on the diaphram in the injection pump which allows more dino juice to be squirted in. so you tap a nozzle on the inlet manifold for the propane with a regulator behind it - as the boost increases it opens the regulator flow in proportion to the boost.... does a regulator like that even exist? If it does, it would be perfect. [words spilling out of brain mode off] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest diesel_jim Posted June 10, 2008 Share Posted June 10, 2008 [words spilling out of brain mode on]could you not use some form of diaphram regulator - basically to act the same as the diaphram in the injection pump? Boost pressure from the turbo acts on the diaphram in the injection pump which allows more dino juice to be squirted in. so you tap a nozzle on the inlet manifold for the propane with a regulator behind it - as the boost increases it opens the regulator flow in proportion to the boost.... does a regulator like that even exist? If it does, it would be perfect. [words spilling out of brain mode off] i think thats pretty much how the allisport unit works, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dreadnought110 Posted June 12, 2008 Share Posted June 12, 2008 Has anyone done this on a 300tdi is the fuel consumption's figure's really better does it melt cylinder's etc.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest diesel_jim Posted June 12, 2008 Share Posted June 12, 2008 Has anyone done this on a 300tdi is the fuel consumption's figure's really better does it melt cylinder's etc.. Andy Chaplin (he's on here sometimes) had his international 2.8Tdi (so it's almost a 300Tdi) gassed for the malaysian challenge a couple of years ago and it went fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MECCANO Posted June 12, 2008 Share Posted June 12, 2008 does a regulator like that even exist? If it does, it would be perfect. Im sure it was Si (Mr Xeng) that said that was how a camping reg works, when he previosuly experimented with it. Im just a fan of electronics/ the tunability factor or it all (if it works). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simonr Posted June 12, 2008 Share Posted June 12, 2008 Indeed! I just aquired (from JamesM on ere) a propane bottle with a regulator intended for a camping stove. The regulator had a variable flow / pressure knob. I just poked the rubber hose into the inlet of a 200tdi started the engine and wound up the propane pressure until I could feel a difference. It was only measured by starting at a known point on a road and flooring it. Note the speed reached at another known point - and I got a 5 to 10% increase. The regulator wants to deliver a given pressure at it's outlet. To do this, it increases the flow until that pressure is achieved. I figured that as the engine speed / turbo suck increased, the pressure in the propane feed pipe would fall and the regulator would increase the flow to compensate. This would give a fairly constant air to propane mixture as the engine speed changed. The set up was pretty Heath Robinson and probably not very linear - but it seemed to work well enough. I used it until the propane was all used up - then found another project to entertain me! Si Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muddy Posted June 13, 2008 Share Posted June 13, 2008 Did you feed it in pre or post turbo si? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nicks90 Posted June 13, 2008 Share Posted June 13, 2008 the egr hole on the 300tdi metal intercooler pipe would be perfect to hook the propane hose to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simonr Posted June 13, 2008 Share Posted June 13, 2008 Pre turbo. It is reacting to a pressure drop not a pressure rise as you would get on the engine side of the turbo. Si Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest diesel_jim Posted July 10, 2008 Share Posted July 10, 2008 Just dug this one up form the (last month) past.... I've bought a propane kit (second hand one), one of the allisport kits, for my project110 Td5. chatting to several people, they suggest that the injection can be (long term) detrimental to the engine... saying it dries out the bores and burns out valve seats. :o Is this just scaremongery, or does long term use of propane eventually knacker an engine? (i wasn't planning on running the gas 24/7, but i suspect i'll probably prefer the extra power than not, so it would be used quite a bit) any help accepted! cheers Jamie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
will_warne Posted July 10, 2008 Share Posted July 10, 2008 Just dug this one up form the (last month) past.... I've bought a propane kit (second hand one), one of the allisport kits, for my project110 Td5. chatting to several people, they suggest that the injection can be (long term) detrimental to the engine... saying it dries out the bores and burns out valve seats. :o Is this just scaremongery, or does long term use of propane eventually knacker an engine? (i wasn't planning on running the gas 24/7, but i suspect i'll probably prefer the extra power than not, so it would be used quite a bit) any help accepted! cheers Jamie Jamie, I've heard a story of someone washing the bores by extended use. No ideas on the spec of the kit (it wasn't Allisport's) so it's probably worth talking to them if you're going to use their kit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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