AWDC Howlin' Wolf Winch-Off

[najw]

A new thread to keep this seperate from existing event discussion

OKAY, here's the plan...

There isn't one :blink:

This came about as an idea that as winch-tech seems to have superceded suspension-tech then we should replace the Twist-Off with the Winch-Off

I don't know about you but I rarely get a chance to see everyone's kit in action so it would be nice, at a spectator friendly site, to gather together on the Saturday evening and have a chance to see, watch and compare what the latest developments are.

So, what we are trying to put together is a series of 2-3 tests that everyone can take part in, purely for fun, to get some figures on paper. Not necessarily just speed, but other factors as well.

So, please let me have your (practical) thoughts as to what we could do at West Harptree in September, bearing in mind that there is likely to be grip on the ground and a distinct lack of big trees.

I will try and pull something together, hopefully we will be able to supplement this with a Hogroast and we can all have a damn good weekend.

PS: Vapour builders and engineers need not apply

[Mr E]

I guess the 2 or 3 elements would be what you would look for in a "competition winch"

1) Power

2) Speed

3) control

................And length of rope

Mark..........

[simonr]

Good idea Niel. There is so much arguement over the relative merits of different winches, it might help people decide which offers the best compromise for their needs.

Since I qualify as an Engineer and possibly a vapour builder, I'll not add my Euro worth!

Si

[alan kemp]

For me, it needs to have an indurance element as well as speed. We also need to be testing winches and not driver ability. A dead weight on skids on hard ground so it doesnt cut up would be my suggestion, say a skip full of dead 8274's with the winch vehicle's anchored to something solid, the "opposition" could drag it back to the start position, backwards and forwards until something gives, could also be timed. It may need a change of places and re-run if the ground is not even/flat.

I would be happy to provide some sort of sled/skids if a design could be suggested that is fair to all (and not too expensive or heavy)...

[Paul Wightman]

For me, it needs to have an indurance element as well as speed. We also need to be testing winches and not driver ability. A dead weight on skids on hard ground so it doesnt cut up would be my suggestion, say a skip full of dead 8274's with the winch vehicle's anchored to something solid, the "opposition" could drag it back to the start position, backwards and forwards until something gives, could also be timed. It may need a change of places and re-run if the ground is not even/flat.

I would be happy to provide some sort of sled/skids if a design could be suggested that is fair to all (and not too expensive or heavy)...

That sounds like a true representation of a real life challenge situation!

Neil, I can't see how you can evaluate a winch without the winch-drive ability which has to include the vehicle and even driver ability?

[alan kemp]

That sounds like a true representation of a real life challenge situation!

Neil, I can't see how you can evaluate a winch without the winch-drive ability which has to include the vehicle and even driver ability?

I dont think we are looking for a winch challenge representation are we? The Howling Wolf type events bear absolutely no resembelence to the Tay Trophy type event. If driver ability is included, you are not purely testing the winch.

A seperate test could be included say up a very steep, long bank where drive assist could be used but then tyres and drive line will come into it.

[JST]

Is it a winch off to find the best winch or the best winch to vehicle combination? If your looking to move a dead weight then i guess its just the winch in isolation you are considering?

[Paul Wightman]

Alan, don't get me wrong, I'm not looking for a forum fight!

This subject has been discussed on more than one occasion, Moglite and strain gauges?

What do we want here? An evaluation of a winch for static recovery work or a winch for use at a winch challenge?

If you take the vehicle out of the equation then are we not actually bench testing?

Are we looking for endurance? This could last some days!

Will electrics be limited on battery capacity, alternator capacity motor cooling?

Will hydraulics be limited on oil capacity, oil cooling?

Will the evaluation require the engine to be running all the time?

If this is approached as a hog roast with some winch comparison thrown in for fun it should be fun, if it is taken as a definitive, end of story, my winch is the best,

scientific evaluation it is doomed from the start.

The hydraulic/electric debate is like religion, we all preach love of the common winch but if you don't worship mine I will kill you!

[Daan]

it is doomed from the start.

Just What I was thinking.

[roguevogue]

The Howling Wolf type events bear absolutely no resembelence to the Tay Trophy type event.

Could you elaborate on which particular aspect you feel bears no resemblance?

If you mean long, repeated winch runs then I should like to refer you to the most recent round 2, Corwen.

If you mean that there is no opportunity for chassis deep sucking bog, needing double line winching to recover then I should like to refer you to round 1, Slab common.

However if there are other aspects of the Tay which you feel won't be covered in the current shedule then now is the time to contact Neil to see what he can do for you at subsequent rounds.

[alan kemp]

Alan, don't get me wrong, I'm not looking for a forum fight!

This subject has been discussed on more than one occasion, Moglite and strain gauges?

What do we want here? An evaluation of a winch for static recovery work or a winch for use at a winch challenge?

If you take the vehicle out of the equation then are we not actually bench testing?

Are we looking for endurance? This could last some days!

Will electrics be limited on battery capacity, alternator capacity motor cooling?

Will hydraulics be limited on oil capacity, oil cooling?

Will the evaluation require the engine to be running all the time?

If this is approached as a hog roast with some winch comparison thrown in for fun it should be fun, if it is taken as a definitive, end of story, my winch is the best,

scientific evaluation it is doomed from the start.

The hydraulic/electric debate is like religion, we all preach love of the common winch but if you don't worship mine I will kill you!

Sorry Paul if I came over a bit wrong, I am not looking for a forum fight either. To be honest, I dont care which is best, I know what mine can do and it scores best under heavy use (deep bogs, all day). They all have their advantages and disadvantages and everyone will have our their own preferences.

A winch off in this context should be spectator friendly, quick and fair, hence the skip idea. The car can be doing anything required to drive the winch as long as it is static. I think it would be interesting as well as a good laugh on the night. I would genuinley like to compare a sooped up 8274 agains a type R just for comparison's sake.

As you say, endurance could last for days but if the weight is heavy enough, I guess the differeces could be shown quickly.

I would like to see a few Fibre ropes broken as well to dispell the myth (in my opinion) that they store energy and require a winch sail. I have some old ones

[alan kemp]

Could you elaborate on which particular aspect you feel bears no resemblance?

If you mean long, repeated winch runs then I should like to refer you to the most recent round 2, Corwen.

If you mean that there is no opportunity for chassis deep sucking bog, needing double line winching to recover then I should like to refer you to round 1, Slab common.

However if there are other aspects of the Tay which you feel won't be covered in the current shedule then now is the time to contact Neil to see what he can do for you at subsequent rounds.

On the Tay, sections are a lot longer and there is a lot more hard winching all day long. I am not knocking HW but they are a different type of event.

As for Corwen, I didnt get to do much winching as my brand new pump blew up on the first punch as it was supplied with the wrong rotation . Slab broke my steering early on so didnt do much there either.

[najw]

Lets make one thing clear - this is for FUN !!!

I'm not sticking my head above the parapet to start a civil war, if I was going to do that I could think of far better causes

Destruction testing the evening before a championship round doesn't seem very sensible to me either.

As I said, I envisage an opportunity for interested parties to gather round and observe what each others kit can do in a relaxed atmosphere.

So, suggestions so far appear to be:

1: Static pull of dead weight on skids across level ground

2: Drive assisted winch up a long steep slope

3: Spool out and recovery of heavy object

[V8CAMEL]

Lets make one thing clear - this is for FUN !!!

I'm not sticking my head above the parapet to start a civil war, if I was going to do that I could think of far better causes

Destruction testing the evening before a championship round doesn't seem very sensible to me either.

As I said, I envisage an opportunity for interested parties to gather round and observe what each others kit can do in a relaxed atmosphere.

So, suggestions so far appear to be:

1: Static pull of dead weight on skids across level ground

2: Drive assisted winch up a long steep slope

3: Spool out and recovery of heavy object

what about a tug of war with just the winches?

[JST]

why not set out 40 punches and see who gets the most in a set time........

[glaggs]

Hows about a winch version of the Worlds Strongest man atlas stones event. Three objects, light weight(!), medium and heavey. Each set at a slightly longer distance behind a base line. Vehicle has to relocate between pulls and team have to work together to drag in the weights. Give the task a time limit, say 4 mins and award points on No. of weights, time and for split decissions distance.

[Paul Wightman]

My wife can make a rice pudding that would worry a type R!

[najw]

why not set out 40 punches and see who gets the most in a set time........

:rolleyes:

I had thought about a tug-of-war but can't see how you'd work out who was actually pulling who

Another idea (as I think JST mentioned control) would be stopping the pull on a signal and seeing which winch ceased pulling quickest.

The rice pudding will go down nicely after the pork-fest

[alan kemp]

My wife can make a rice pudding that would worry a type R!

I like the idea of a tug of war.

[dirtydiesel]

What about using a rig similar to a tractor pulling sled, in that the faster and harder the winch pulls the further along the corse it will pull the sled,

This would give a good comparison for speed and line pull.

[Boothy]

Whilst you load of (iv'e got the biggest and best) Wallies are pratting on about your winches, I'm sneaking in and eating the Hog and stuff you!

Plenty of room

[Jon White]

The way I see it is there are two different areas that ought to be tested.

One is with the winch under load, one with the winch not under load.

Not under load is easy. Starting with the cable fully spooled on the drum, cable must be spooled out (or freespooled if your winch is so equipped) to a point marked on the ground, and then retrieved fully spooled onto the drum against the clock. To my mind time spent spooling out and spooling back in slack is important.

Under load testing could be dragging a series of heavy objects over a given distance against the clock. If the object started lighter and gradually got heavier, then it would be an accurate test, especially if the whole thing was done against the clock, as it wouldnt give the batteries of the elctric winch boys time to re-charge etc.

This would be the easiest to set up in field as they could simply be big logs or big lumps of concrete etc.

i dont think drive assisting up an incline is a fair test of winches since different vehciles will have different tyres and therefore levels of grip etc. On the same not winching you vehicle up a slope isnt a fair test as they will all weigh a different amount. The only way to test it fairly is for all competitors to winch the same object about.

Jon

[Snow White]

Boothy, prehaps we should put you on the sledge!!

[Mr E]

I think to be fair to all, and to keep it fun you should.

1) Winch up hill, unassisted against the clock, This will allow the smaller trucks with winches suited to there 4x4's weight to compete.(you can't write off a winch just because its only big enough to winch a zooki at the speed of a thousand gazelles)

2) Winch up assisted, against the clock, to be fair to the guys who's winches are designed to do this.

3) Driver and bitch stand 5' away from car, then they have to run to car and free spool/ spool out 100' against the clock.

Thats all. This will show "real world" winch action and be simple and fun.

Mark........

[alan kemp]

Boothy, prehaps we should put you on the sledge!!

Sod the sledge, Boothy would be a good test for any winch, lie him down with the bow of a effing great tree above him a try to stand him up by winch,(no double pulls allowed). As long as his right arm can reach the hog roast and his left can reach a pale of ale, all should be well.