Scotian Posted April 30, 2008 Share Posted April 30, 2008 Hi people. Just want to throw this one out there. Please dont flame me for it being a rubbish fix but I have very few options out here in Romania. In a previous thread I have said about problems with what seems to be the clutch. I get a violent judder in reverse and first gear (and now spread to second) when I manouver with the clutch pedal half in. When its released the judder stops straight away. We came to the conclusion that there may be oil on the clutch plate/fly wheel that is causing this. Would it do any hard to spray soap and hot water witha steam preassure washer up the drain plug hole in the bottom of the bell housing in an effort to clean the oil that is the possible cause of this? I just need it to be drivable till then end of summer at which time I will be changing the knackerd old gear box, fitting a disco transfer box, chaning the crank rear seal and putting on a new fly wheel (from a 200Tdi sat in a friends garage). I belive that will cover any damage that will be cuased from continuing to drive with this judder. So... I dont care so much it the power wash doesnt work out to be a quick fix, I just want to know if anyone knows of any major problems that will be caused by this bearing in mind what I said my plan is this year with the new parts? Cheers Oh. I wont be online again for another 24 hours so if I dont reply its not becuase I'm being rude catch you all tomorrow night Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted April 30, 2008 Share Posted April 30, 2008 Buy an aerosol can of brake & clutch parts cleaner and aim it in there, it will dissolve oil (and anything else) and leave no residue. I used the breather hole I made in the top of my bellhousing to clean grit out of my clutch with a hose, seemed to work OK. If you don't have a hole - make one then either tap it & fit a breather or plug it up. Do not use carb cleaner or similar engine cleaner stuff as they can leave a residue that could be worse than the oil contamination you're trying to shift. Oh and if you spray water in there, give it a run to get warm to stop it from rusting up in there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simonr Posted April 30, 2008 Share Posted April 30, 2008 Sounds like a pretty decent idea to me! Si Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fatboy Posted April 30, 2008 Share Posted April 30, 2008 I'd drill a specific hole at the top of the bellhousing at the right kind of area to allow you to get close to the friction plate and give a flow path in/out through the drain plug. If you go "up" from the bottom, you may well blast displaced muck back upward as it tries to escape. Then you need to do it with the clutch pedal on the floor so that there is a gap between the surfaces. Engine off so that you are not fighting centrifugal force. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
upnover4x4 Posted April 30, 2008 Share Posted April 30, 2008 In a previous life my box has had a 2" hole drill in the bottom of the housing!!!!! For this reason I can only assume. I made up an ali plate & sandwiched a peice of rubber in between the plate. Had to tap 4 holes in the housing but it works a treat. Solvent cleaners for electrical contacts etc work a treat but if using this type, as said earlier some leave a thin protective film. Try getting hold of a contact cleaner but not a cleaner & protector. Adrian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GBMUD Posted April 30, 2008 Share Posted April 30, 2008 FWIW I think that you are wasting your time. Once the oil is soaked in then it is all but impossible to remove, even with the friction plate out of the car. The oil is not only on the surface but soaked into friction material. Sorry not to be more positive. Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gromit Posted April 30, 2008 Share Posted April 30, 2008 I remember reading in one of those survival guides that blasting a contaminated clutch with an extinguisher stopped it slipping. Can't remember what type, or why it prevented it slipped. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TSD Posted April 30, 2008 Share Posted April 30, 2008 When I had a contaminated clutch (car not landy) I could still get a smooth pull away by using a bit more revs and slipping the clutch more... When I had similar symptoms on the Ibex, more revs made it more violent... it turned out the centre of the driven plate was breaking up. (130 HD clutch) Don't you need quite a big leak to contamine the clutch? It's got to get right round the flywheel from one side to the other, then up through the cover plate. Then again, it could get thrown off the back of the flywheel onto the top of the bellhousing and drip down. Dunno, just thinking out loud... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roverdrive Posted April 30, 2008 Share Posted April 30, 2008 As above. If you use water, go for a run to warm things through afterwards, but I would park it up with the clutch pedal wedged down in case the friction plate sticks to the flywheel with surface rust. Just my tuppence Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happyoldgit Posted April 30, 2008 Share Posted April 30, 2008 As temporary fixes I've used paint thinners, carbon tet, brake cleaner etc in the past but if it's really contaminated the only long term solution is to get the source of the contamination sorted and a new clutch plate fitted. Be wary of dousing the release bearing in too many solvents. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveRK Posted April 30, 2008 Share Posted April 30, 2008 surely Any oil on any part of the clutch cannot in itself cause judder? How does it happen? Assuming the clutch plate and pressure plate and flywheel faces are all flat and true it defies logic surely that the clutch will slip for some degrees of rotation and then grip???? I know it sounds like a contaminated clutch would do this but just doesnt make sense to me - help me out here Broken pressure plate parts, springs in the clutch plate broken etc might be the cause or loose/worn gearbox/engine mounts surely? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
landmannnn Posted April 30, 2008 Share Posted April 30, 2008 In the olden days the standard garage fix for oily brake shoes was to put them in boiling water which drove out the oil from the friction linings. Perhaps you could wedge the clutch pedal down, fill the bellhousing with hot water and set a fire underneath to boil the water. (not serious of course!) Steam cleaning would be worth a try but don't use a detergent otherwise it will dry up the release bearing and wear it out very quickly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotian Posted May 1, 2008 Author Share Posted May 1, 2008 Thanks very much guys for all those ideas and experiences. I'm going to mix alot of the advice together and drill a whole in the top, and flush it out with hot water (no soap) and possibily then go any buy some break cleaner if its not much better and do the same with that. Want to try and do the no cost option first Then there is what TSD and SteveRK said. There is very little oil leaking. Not enough yet to even leave a drip on the floor. My engine oil is going down but only very very slowly and there is alot of oil around the filter housing so most it being lost there (still not enough to leave a drip on the floor) I checked the clutch fluid level today and it was a little low. The fluid was clean but when I put my finger in the top of the filer there was alot of muck in there. I topped up the fluid but there wasnt any difference. So anyway, it got me thinking maybe its not a contaminent but just that the hydraulics need flushing out and refilling? It does seem strange that these symptoms would come from oil on the plate (unless just a patch of the plate had oil on it?) so maybe the clutch just isnt disengaging properly when I am putting my foot down on it? Is there anything else I could alter to try and eliminate this as a possibility? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve_d Posted May 1, 2008 Share Posted May 1, 2008 ................So anyway, it got me thinking maybe its not a contaminant but just that the hydraulics need flushing out and refilling? It does seem strange that these symptoms would come from oil on the plate (unless just a patch of the plate had oil on it?) so maybe the clutch just isn't disengaging properly when I am putting my foot down on it? Is there anything else I could alter to try and eliminate this as a possibility? If you now have doubts about the hydraulics (Which I'm not convinced about) then a good bleed will do no harm. Roll back the dust seal on the slave cylinder and check if it is leaking but again if it were leaking enough to cause a clutch operation problem then the whole area would be wet with fluid and you would not be here asking questions. You commented earlier about not understanding how oil contamination could affect one area of the clutch plate and not another giving the judder. It does not work quite that way. The whole face will be contaminated but not enough to make the clutch slip all the time. The grip is marginal so will slip then grip again then slip etc. hence the judder. Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveRK Posted May 1, 2008 Share Posted May 1, 2008 I can go with that that Steve_D, that does makes sense. But, im still gonna pin my hat on loose, worn mounts on the engine and / or gearbox. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotian Posted May 1, 2008 Author Share Posted May 1, 2008 I;ve checked the mounts to death. I changed every bush there is to change too (but didnt change the mounts). I put the engine and the gear box in last year and I was under the other day with a crow bar testing the mounts and they are all good. But... becuase you sound so sure. I cant help but go and check again. I'm going to tripple check and get back to you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Les Henson Posted May 1, 2008 Share Posted May 1, 2008 If your drain plug is usually out, then any fluid leak is unlikely to get on the clutch. Engine oil from the rear crank seal will run down behind the flywheel and out through the hole. Clutch fluid will run down the inner profile of the bellhousing and exit the same way. A heavy engine oil leak could get flung onto the bellhousing via the back of the flywheel and then drip down onto the clutch mechanism. Clutch judder can also be caused by an imbalance of either the cover or the plate and will get profressively worse if you leave it. Broken gearbox mounts tend to give a single clunk whenever a gear is engaged or engine revs changed. If you leave it too long - the flywheel face will have high-spots or surface micro-cracking and will then have to be machined to restore it. Les. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve_d Posted May 1, 2008 Share Posted May 1, 2008 Don't forget that judder or snatch can be caused by something like engine and box mounts 'winding-up' then releasing. This also means the same effect can be happening all the way down the drive train so axle and suspension bushes should also come under scrutiny. Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotian Posted May 1, 2008 Author Share Posted May 1, 2008 as I said. All bushes were changed a couple of weeks ago as they all suddenly decided to go at once. The juddering seemed to be helped after each set of bushes were changed (started with the rear shocks, then front shocks, then rear radius arms etc etc...) Then shortly after the juddering would get worse again. Now all the bushes are changed and the juddering is getting worse and worse with each drive. Les.. are you saying that the clutch cover could be loose? It was changed last year when the engine was changed. I will do the clean, then test, then blead the system, then test and if still no joy take the engine forward and check the cover is bolted on well still. Bluddy landrover ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveRK Posted May 2, 2008 Share Posted May 2, 2008 Worth spraying some oil/wd40 onto the gearbox shaft just in case there is a dry spot? A ridge, burr or wear on the shaft might cause problems also. Then there's the release bearing and so on. I suspect it will require seperating the gearbox................if you are confident that the mounts are all nice and tight. As a test could you not wedge some timber between the gearbox and body to see what affect that has? I'm all for radical tests cause/effect/process of ellimination and so on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotian Posted May 3, 2008 Author Share Posted May 3, 2008 You've got me worried now. I got the gear box cheap and it had a very worn shaft (think it was the input but not 100% sure) The splines were about 1 third worn on it. Its done about 15,000 miles since it was fitted. Could this be the final death throws of the shaft before I loose all drive all together? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Les Henson Posted May 3, 2008 Share Posted May 3, 2008 Gearbox input shaft is a big problem on early LT77 boxes. This is caused by lack of lubrication from the transfer case oil. A quick fix was an oil flinger plate that chucked the oil up onto the shaft and gear, then a cross-drilled gear was inroduced. If the wear has already started, then the inevitable will happen. Taking up drive/changing produces a clunk that sounds like it's coming from the back axle. The only cure is a new gearbox input shaft or exchange box from Ashcrofts. Eventually the remains of the shaft teeth will shear off and you will lose all drive. Les. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotian Posted May 3, 2008 Author Share Posted May 3, 2008 I understand that.. but are the symptoms I'm getting relating to the inevitable failure of my shaft or as we were thinking before.. contaminated clutch? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Les Henson Posted May 3, 2008 Share Posted May 3, 2008 With a worn input shaft you will just get the one clunk. Vibration is somthing else. Les. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveRK Posted May 3, 2008 Share Posted May 3, 2008 I was referring to the output shaft that passes through the clutch assembly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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