Tyre Survey - May affect allowed tyres for events

[Renny]

I received this today regardng tyres for Cross Contry events. It may affect you in the future if you do Trials, Comp Safaris, Hill Rallies

or other events. Please read and complete the survey.

All

Following our discussions at the last CC Committee, I set about gathering data from our club members on the tyres they use. I've devised a short (10 question) on-line survey and posted it on our forum. I intend to gather the data and the comments users are posting and send them to Ian at the end of the month, I'll copy the rest of you in too.

To get more data, could you circulate the web URL to your contacts?

The survey is at: http://www.surveymonkey.com/s.aspx?sm=p9zy...P9e6p6crg_3d_3d

Feel free to spread this far and wide!

So far the response to a request for comments about the possibility of banning certain types of tyre has been mixed and generally accepting of the need to stop ground damage.

Regards

Karl

Some of the comments so far:

1.

poss prohibit diamonds but not mud-terrains. all terrains can be dangerous on the terrain we race on

2.

I would have no objection to Diamond pattern tyres being banned for all events. But I do think mud-terrain pattern should be allowed. (As the AWDC are proceding). Our club has held a CCV at my parents farm for 18 years. There was no lasting damage on the ground when normal mud-terrain tyres were used. (i.e. BFG, Trackers, SATS etc....). But when Diamonds started being used we have stopped certain long hillclimbs because they rip through and destroy the root structure. Whereas with a conventional mud-terrain, looks like it has made a mess, but in reality the damage is seldom deeper than about 2 or 3 inches. The ground therefore actually recovers very quickly. (The ground is mostly grassy hill land in an area of outstanding natural beauty, so this is important!!!).

3.

in all cases ground damage should be kept to a minimum

4.

Some events now have 'control tyres' specified in the SRs, makes it a level playing field(!) and shows the land-owner that the organisers are trying to minimise damage. Some tyres have been banned from ALRC events for a long time anyway, it's just a step further.

5.

I think stipulating a particular 'style' of tyre for events would be a good idea as long as the style stipulated remains the same for ALL similar events, i.e. RTV all must use All Terrains.

6.

If we need this or no more trialing etc what choice do we have?

7.

IF there is a decision to ban any sort of tyre it should not be made effective immediately. many people buy just one set of tyres to last them many years in this "low cost" motor sport and to force them into buying another set may mean that they leave the sport altogether.

8.

severe tread patterns on greenlanes damage the lanes for other users

9.

Banning certain types of tyre will not stop the bad driving style of some drivers. I don't agree with banning some or all MT tyres overall. SR's can be used at sensitive or likely damaged sites.

[draper40]

The link just seems to put me onto the home page of the website and not to the survey!

Pete

[Renny]

The link just seems to put me onto the home page of the website and not to the survey!

Pete

Sorry try

http://www.surveymonkey.com/s.aspx?sm=p9zy...P9e6p6crg_3d_3d

made a mistake in the original post.

[LR90]

Filled it in but it seems to be considering stopping use of MTs off road which was rather surprising. If I had the cash I could see this resulting in me having to have Simex for the road, 285 MTs for James' daily driver events and a set of 205 LTs for off road competition which all seems very back to front.

[B reg 90]

Is this not the type of rule that makes folk want to move on from the ARC type events?? I wouldn't go to an event that restricted my tyre/vehicle/winch/axle choice - hence why my next event will be the Tay, not an ARC event.

Adrian

[bathtub]

Is this not the type of rule that makes folk want to move on from the ARC type events?? I wouldn't go to an event that restricted my tyre/vehicle/winch/axle choice - hence why my next event will be the Tay, not an ARC event.

Adrian

Makes me laugh

So SATs are ok then ??????

What about TSL Swampers they are the same pattern as a MT almost. Boggers ??????

Surely if they are going to make rules then the EXACT pattern should be specified not just ban Diamond for instance.

Same here Adrian if one group want to restict themselves to Ats let them that why we mainly complete abroad now.

Look at COR events one minute anything other than a 90 on Mts would be allowed & we where all a bit worried about our trucks !

Know most people arnt interest in them type of events .Which to me shows people want bigger ,louder, less pc trucks !!Horses for course really

But whatever

[sean f]

I do think this is something which has to be thought about before acting.

As one of the comments said many people only have one set of tyres which need to do every thing so having to buy different tyres to compete in different events would be expensive and start limiting the sport to only those with deep pockets. At the moment a set of BFG MT or similar will work on just about all events, they may not be the best in many cases but will work and are still usable as an every day road tyre. I run TSL Swampers all the time and live with the road noise and handling but then due to the work I do I cover very few road miles, I wouldn't want to have to buy less agressive tyre to enter an event.

This is particularly the case with control tyres, buying a set of tyres specifically for a certain event is Ok on big national or International level event where sponsoreship is possible but at club level would price most people out.

I can understand why they would want to restrict particularly agressive tyres on a certain site or certain levels to try and keep the field level or prevent damage, most people don't run simex style tyre on an every day vehicle so they would be against the spirit (if not the rules) on a RTV type of event.

[T1G UP]

if you start putting a control tyre in place then there needs to be time.....year maybe to allow people to change over.

BUT if the tyres are controlled what about welded diffs,dumper tyres etc.

Set the rules but if there to stringent then people will not participate.

[filthy boy]

And make every one run them at 30psi!!!

[Renny]

A lot of ground owners are complaining about the damage caused by agressive tyres. The result is either they increase the land charges, or stop the use of the land due to the damage. This will kill certain areas of the sport like RTV and Tyro trials, so how will folks get introduced to events? Most folks can't afford a dedicated Challenge spec motor and they too will run out of ground for events.

This has already affected the Scottish Borders Hillrally, the British Cross Country Championship and many club level events. As examples, many sites already do not allow "maxicross", "dumper" or other obviously agressive tread patterns. The Forestry Commission are wanting to ban MT tyres or they will increase the charges to the same as rally organisers pay which will mean greatly increased event entry fees. If the sport does not take action to control land damage, we will find ourselves limited to pay and play quarries. It is bad enough the hassle from the greens about 4x4s in general and the increasing fuel costs.

[T1G UP]

i compete in RTV. there are no restrictions as long as there road legal. IF the damage is detrimental to the sport then something must be done but we as 4x4 drivers are being hounded from all sides, i won't take the notion of being told what tyres i'm to use very well, whats next 2wd only!

[nicks90]

absolute balderdash.

as long as the tyres are road legal, speed and load marked appropriate for the vehicle they are fitted to - then whats the problem?

yes, certain drivers can cause alot of damage - but i dont believe thats down to the tyre completely. I could dig a very large hole with a set of SATs by being heavy right footed and spinning the wheels when bogged down on an RTV. I could dig the same hole with diamond style grizzlies, or bfg MT, or simex-alike retreads.........

thats why at our clubs rtv's, if forward motion is lost and the competitor spits the dummy out and starts hoofing and spinning wheels in an attempt to crawl out - he frequently gets a clod of mud flung through the window and yelled at. Not only cos it damages the ground unnecessarily - but it cuts the course up for those following making it unfair.

and those comments about aggressive tyres damaging greenlanes.... i beg to differ. I suffer much less wheelspin doing lanes in my 90, than when we go out in the disco fitted with mild A/Ts.

[FridgeFreezer]

Whichever club that is needs to pull it's head out of it's arse. And who books an off-road event on a site that worries about ground damage?

[simonr]

This argument goes round and round. I remember something similar in the early 90's about SAT's & SAG's. The trouble for any organiser implementing a wide scale ban is that they will find their entry list looking a bit empty!

MT's are probably the least damaging of off-road capable tyres. To be honest, I think my AT's do more damage to the bit of my garden I park in than the MT's when the ground is wet.

I can see the point of view of land damage - but some of that has to be down to the organisers as well. Don't put punches in places where it will result in unrepairable damage - replace them with sections / punches where winching is the only option. Limiting the field to AT's would make it quite interesting though!

Limiting tyre size/pattern might be OK for RTV's which are often a route for new people to get in to the sport - but a ban across the board will kill it.

Si

[Hybrid_From_Hell]

A Simexed 4x4 all lockered up drives through something with "agressive tyres"...

followed by a AT shod 5000 rpm revving muppet who get stuck ....and keeps the revs going

which does the damage then ?

As others have said, absolute PC nonsense

Nige

[Jon White]

Not quite PC nonsense! My understanding is that people are missing the point.

AWDC have introduced this ruling for Safari racing only. This has been made due to the excessive damage that was being done to the ground by competitors running on diamonds. This has been made worse by the loss of a number of sites, and the charges imposed by the landowners for making good the ground after an event.

To the best of my knowledge there are no plans afoot to limit tyre sizes/patterns any further than this.

However IMHO there is no excuse for going out laning on Simex's. They casue unacceptable damage to the ground, and if the terrain of the lanes are such that you need simex to get through the lane, then quite frankly you shouldnt be driving them! The anti's have more than enough ammunation to use against us at the moment!

Jon

[uazvet]

So UK offroading isn't a grassroots sport anymore clearly you need more than the miniscule number of tracks and lanes that are currently available to you - if the damage is such.

[Renny]

Not quite PC nonsense! My understanding is that people are missing the point.

AWDC have introduced this ruling for Safari racing only. This has been made due to the excessive damage that was being done to the ground by competitors running on diamonds. This has been made worse by the loss of a number of sites, and the charges imposed by the landowners for making good the ground after an event.

To the best of my knowledge there are no plans afoot to limit tyre sizes/patterns any further than this.

However IMHO there is no excuse for going out laning on Simex's. They casue unacceptable damage to the ground, and if the terrain of the lanes are such that you need simex to get through the lane, then quite frankly you shouldnt be driving them! The anti's have more than enough ammunation to use against us at the moment!

Jon

Jon, you are right. There is now talk at the MSA of limiting tyres. At the momnent it is being considered, hence the survey. The big risk is that the MSA do not understand what we do and may apply a blanket ban. Some sites have alraedy been lost for RTV and Tyro trials because of ground damage. This will only get worse.

As for those who see it as PC madness, well it is because of the damage that it might happen. Is it madness just to think it will never happen? One day you will get a fright when you find there is no land available for trials and all you will be able to do is drive the remaining green lanes that have not had TROs placed on them. Yes you are right that the numpties cause damage by spinning wheels. However 500bhp and diamonds causes damage that takes serious effort to reinstate. That is why the Forestry has banned MT tyres being used on events. We have had to appease land owners and limit tyres or we would not get the land.

However, if anyone has access to several hundred (or thousands) of acres (preferably in Central Scotland) where the land owner does not mind their land being cut up, then please contact the Scottish Hill Rally Club. We will be gald to use it in next years hill rally. We might even be able to let the competitors use diamonds

[lrfarmer]

most of the RTV's held by ALRC clubs say that once you stop moving then stop and get towed out.

if the msa say the tyres that can and can't be used people will stop doing the sport and just do pay and play days and greenlaning to stay out of the rules.

[bathtub]

However IMHO there is no excuse for going out laning on Simex's. They casue unacceptable damage to the ground, and if the terrain of the lanes are such that you need simex to get through the lane, then quite frankly you shouldnt be driving them! The anti's have more than enough ammunation to use against us at the moment!

Jon

Must agree if you ahve a truck with lockers ,Simex [ ] etc then why would you want to green lane it other than sight seeing ?????? If its sight seeing then a standard 90 on ATs will do it if its for play then pay & play at the right place!!!!

Personally i used to love laning & to be honest because it was at the time challenging

Since i started comps the idea of laning is laughable in anything other than my wifes Hummer .In a well sorted {ok that excludes the Tub} challenge truck i would even need to engage the lockers on any lane i have driven in the UK let along winch it . Plus as its been said if you do need to then you shouldnt be there HOWEVER

In Surrey in general the only lanes that are clear are the ones that a driven regularly ,stop driving them &n they soon become unpassable even to walk & then the only truck capable of driving them is a challenge truck unless the council clear the lane