Howlin' Wolf Round 5

[doublej]

(All with a grain of Kirton MUD, as this was only my second event)

I am right with KingCJ, the water was fun and interesting. But I have always loved wheeling in the water. The tight sections did teach me alot, and as BIG as KingCJs jeepis I wouldn't ask Neil for anything else. Its just more added to the event.

Is there any reason that One Way sections aren't used as much? I only remember seeing 1.

Big thanks to everyone that set this up, never had a problem with the marshals, or any of the crew. And tiring as it was, I am defiantly looking forward to the next.

[Adrian Turner]

I know what you are saying about cheat's When we got to punch 1 in the afternoon we found the rope down and a clear set of simex marks running over the rope up to the punch and back out again what is the point We went the right(long) way round and drove the lot..... my best drive of the day, enjoyed that one

As to the mashall's, you do do a grand and thankless job, please keep it up.

And i still dont see the point of punch's in very deep water............ i hope you walk the water when you put them out??? form a safety point of view, we dont want a novice upside down in deep water now do we!

See you at the next one........

[AVIT]

Thanks for being so open Badgers & Glaggs, I wasn't going to be the one to write "It wasn't me guv, I didn't do it". As Clerk of the Course I have ultimate responsibility and I did what I could in the circumstances to ensure a safe event.

Whenever you plan an event you look at what each individual site has to offer and then capitalise on it, with Kirton it's water, mud and rock. By my reckoning only 14 of the 40 punches were what I would consider to be water so thats roughly a third in a 3 way split.

As RogueVogue and JST proved in a V8 with no snorkel or waterproofing you didn't need to play in the water to be competitive.

To be honest It would be better if more of the thread was spent naming and shaming the little sh*ts who insist on cheating by driving over the rope to get the punches even despite the clear guidance on the rules and the threat of disqualification. That is what is spoiling this series, not a few wet punches.

The CyberKeys have done away with one angle on cheating, perhaps CCTV is needed next...

We were going to enter four of the howling woolfe starting with the kirton site, but after speaking to a couple that entered the last one, they declined to do anymore because of a couple of guys cheating by running over the tape, and apparently these guys are in the top 3 !!. so we decided not to enter this event because of what we heard. But they did says the howling is one of the best set out and organised events, just a shame there's cheating exercisers !!

[najw]

Last year, the organisers of the grandaddy of them all the MRFC, had to call in the army and police to collect the drivers and abandon the vehicles to the rivers that had flooded their banks.

What is the difference?

hours, weeks, months, years of planning goes out of the window thanks to mother nature. Isn't that what off roading is about?

Suddenly you don't like deep water, As an organiser don't don't forget i am also looking at the risks of you falling over and getting into trouble in other respects

[alan kemp]

We were going to enter four of the howling woolfe starting with the kirton site, but after speaking to a couple that entered the last one, they declined to do anymore because of a couple of guys cheating by running over the tape, and apparently these guys are in the top 3 !!. so we decided not to enter this event because of what we heard. But they did says the howling is one of the best set out and organised events, just a shame there's cheating exercisers !!

Maybe we should name and shame them. I have spoken to several people (not competitors) who have witnessed cheating, some have photo's and even video to prove it, maybe we should have a cheaters gallery.

ps I quite like the water but not in winter when its cold

[najw]

We were going to enter four of the howling woolfe starting with the kirton site, but after speaking to a couple that entered the last one, they declined to do anymore because of a couple of guys cheating by running over the tape, and apparently these guys are in the top 3 !!. so we decided not to enter this event because of what we heard. But they did says the howling is one of the best set out and organised events, just a shame there's cheating exercisers !!

And last year you had an excuse for another reason...

[carl hurst]

We were going to enter four of the howling woolfe starting with the kirton site, but after speaking to a couple that entered the last one, they declined to do anymore because of a couple of guys cheating by running over the tape, and apparently these guys are in the top 3 !!. so we decided not to enter this event because of what we heard. But they did says the howling is one of the best set out and organised events, just a shame there's cheating exercisers !!

I think that enough people are now p****d off with the cheating that genuine competitors will be looking out for them but at one event a co-driver reported such things and was told that nothing could be done because they where not a Marshall, Needs to be sorted soon so it wont spoil such a good series of events,

Carl.

[AVIT]

And last year you had an excuse for another reason...

yea the deep water !, and being a TD5 my driver didnt fancy it, but now its been modded to float, its now not too much of a problem.

[najw]

Maybe we should name and shame them. I have spoken to several people (not competitors) who have witnessed cheating, some have photo's and even video to prove it, maybe we should have a cheaters gallery.

OK, show me the videos and photos and I will deal with it.

I have more to lose with this than any of you do, even though this is my hobby and I don't make a penny from it, I have more planned for next year but if you don't trust me it isn't going happen.

[najw]

I think that enough people are now p****d off with the cheating that genuine competetors will be looking out for them but at one event a co-driver reported such things and was told that nothing could be done becouse they where not a marshall, Needs to be sorted soon so it wont spoil such a goot series of events,

Carl.

Expand, in private if you wish

[najw]

yea the deep water !, and being a TD5 my driver didnt fancy it, but now its been modded to float, its now not too much of a problem.

So are we expected to lay on events for your vehicles?

Or are you going to modify to suit and use it?

[AVIT]

So are we expected to lay on events for your vehicles?

Or are you going to modify to suit and use it?

this is as far as it goes, hope to tray back it if I can persuade him but modded enough to compete isnt it ? and it get used in many events, just not enough for me

[carl hurst]

So are we expected to lay on events for your vehicles?

Or are you going to modify to suit and use it?

On the look out for a small submarine with portals and big diesel, age and colour not important but must be water tight,

Carl.

[Paul Wightman]

I’m not out to start an argument on here and you’re entitled to your own opinion, but I don’t agree with it.

The last thing I want is an argument!

As I said, Neil and you guys must be doing something right as most seem to love the water, it's not for me,

the damage potential is too high. It's a shame it rains every time you set punches near water and overnight

the level rises 3 ft!"

The best events I ever entered were Jim's JBS winch challenges. Virgin sites most of the time and plenty of

technical sections, yes they do take a lot of setting up but it beats hide and seek and simple winch in, punch,

winch out carp.

On the cheating front the Argyle has that one sussed! Each team had a marshal! It will always be a problem

till EACH punch is watched and cheats are named and shamed. In the organisers defense it is rarely a

black and white matter but more interpretation of the rules.

[alan kemp]

OK, show me the videos and photos and I will deal with it.

I have more to lose with this than any of you do, even though this is my hobby and I don't make a penny from it, I have more planned for next year but if you don't trust me it isn't going happen.

Its not a question of trusting you Niel, I think everybody would agree that this is the event to be in, it is well run and well set out. The ones we should and have a real need to trust are the competitors themselves. Unless you actually give meaningful penalties for deliberate cheating or better still, publically kick someone out, I think we will never be able to trust all of the competitors.

I am working on the video's, I only found out today, I have not seen them myself but this instance was at Walters Arena.

[AVIT]

The last thing I want is an argument!

As I said, Neil and you guys must be doing something right as most seem to love the water, it's not for me,

the damage potential is too high. It's a shame it rains every time you set punches near water and overnight

the level rises 3 ft!"

The best events I ever entered were Jim's JBS winch challenges. Virgin sites most of the time and plenty of

technical sections, yes they do take a lot of setting up but it beats hide and seek and simple winch in, punch,

winch out carp.

On the cheating front the Argyle has that one sussed! Each team had a marshal! It will always be a problem

till EACH punch is watched and cheats are named and shamed. In the organisers defense it is rarely a

black and white matter but more interpretation of the rules.

The argyle/tay is a bit easier to marshall though, 40 vehicles in teams of 2, so only 20 mashalls to follow each team. To get 40 + marshalls for the howling would be a struggle dont you think. Also its hard to get marshalls to give penalties as some feel intimidated. The best marshall i came across was a women in an event last year, there was no budging with her and she upset quite a few who interpreted the rules to there own gain, but she stuck to the rules and it was fair to all who competed.

[JST]

When we got to punch 1 in the afternoon we found the rope down and a clear set of simex marks running over the rope up to the punch and back out again what is the point We went the right(long) way round and drove the lot..... my best drive of the day, enjoyed that one

you did better than us here then we drove in but had to winch back up the rock section (that was one of the 3 pulls i could actually use a tree on!) we did it quite late on in the day (Neil will have the time) and the rope was up then with one someone on it who we helped out at the exit.

- ref naming and shaming you can get some info from going back through various pictures from events.

As Paul says the only way to combat it is a marshall per punch or per team. Also all the marshalls have to work to the same datum so that there is no individual interpretation of what the rules are, hence why 1 per punch works well as long as its the same marshall on the same punch all day and then that marshall has to run it exactly the same for everyone.

Same with SSs where we know things can change through the day (not talking specific HW here just generalising) therefore same marhshall for the whole day with same brief and no interpretation of it, ie same thing said to each competitor. Its for the comp to interpret not the Marshall.

Now try and find volunteers to fill those roles!

[Badger]

It's a shame it rains every time you set punches near water and overnight

the level rises 3 ft!"

try reading the post again, that would be 3 feet since we did the recce 3 weeks ago, plus being topped up overnight.

We would love to have a marshal per team or per punch, but it's hard to get enough volunteers. Another way would to have punches close together so that a marshal could keep an eye on them but that's not always possible either.

I, for one, can't understand the mentality of anyone entering an event and then cheating - what's the point? and it spoils it for the majority who play by the rules.

Howlin Wolf is a great series run over different sites and long may it continue together with some of the great drivers and co-drivers we have entering it at the moment.

[alan kemp]

you did better than us here then we drove in but had to winch back up the rock section (that was one of the 3 pulls i could actually use a tree on!) we did it quite late on in the day (Neil will have the time) and the rope was up then with one someone on it who we helped out at the exit.

- ref naming and shaming you can get some info from going back through various pictures from events.

As Paul says the only way to combat it is a marshall per punch or per team. Also all the marshalls have to work to the same datum so that there is no individual interpretation of what the rules are, hence why 1 per punch works well as long as its the same marshall on the same punch all day and then that marshall has to run it exactly the same for everyone.

Same with SSs where we know things can change through the day (not talking specific HW here just generalising) therefore same marhshall for the whole day with same brief and no interpretation of it, ie same thing said to each competitor. Its for the comp to interpret not the Marshall.

Now try and find volunteers to fill those roles!

I marshalled on the Muddy Truckers, 1 marshall to 1 section for 2 days, it was great to see all of the different techniques used to tackle the section and I learned a lot. I would not expect anyone to stay in one section all day but if that were possible, as you say, that marshall would treat all competitors the same.

On the Tay, we had two different marshalls, one for each day, their interpretation was different but well within the rules.

Would 2 marshalls watching say 5 punches work, best vantage, binoculars, no contact with the competitors to avoid arguments, not always practical in places like Walters etc.

Bang an extra £5 on the entrance fee to pay marshalls something towards travel expenses, may be we would get more marshalls valunteering that way

[king cj]

this thread is almost as much fun as the event was!

[glaggs]

As in any sport catching the delliberate cheat is not easy, they tend to do it when your not looking. I spent a lot of Sunday repairing rope and posts, replacing punches and reported all the tape infringments I saw, I would say that none that I saw were deliberate. I did repair rope that had beendriven over but have no proof that this had been deliberate. I also reported any infringements passed onto me by other competitors. I know that if we suspect any teams of cheating we try to watch them more closly, but with 40 vehicles and approx 30 Marshals its not an easy task.

On a different note, my comment about teams making some of the sections look too easy was based on the level of driving I witnessed not the final punch count.

[simon_s]

All this talk about punches being closer together and a marshal per punch is great, but until you have the 40+ marshals required commited beforehand at each event it simply isn't going to happen. We are lucky to have the number we do at the northern events thanks to NCGL but the southern events are a real push to get the minimum number required. Ideas like this are brilliant in theory, but not currently feasible in reality.

And all those who don't enter our events because 'we just put competitors in deep water', feel free to put an entry in for Round 6 at West Harptree, where you'll be lucky to see any all weekend.

[Boothy]

Der, tyre marks, ropes, deep water, GPS sat nav, V8 in water, drive like Chris Abel,

Am I missing the point somewhere???

[istruggle2gate11]

Wow - This thread must give all the hard working Marshals and background organisers that "feel Good Factor!"

[bobtail4x4]

Can I say we did drive a lot of the punches to set them out, but we managed to kill the Unimog, you may have noticed me towing it to the gate before the prizegiving?

Niel did ask for the general level of punches to be not as "extreme" as before but I think the downpour overnight raised the water levels some.

on the punches we set out in the lake you had to pick your course as one line was 5ft deep and another only 2 ft. a bit of walking beforehand and you would have found the way?

we usually volunteer to man a SS all day as did another few people, rather than be roving about all day, partly as we took "Her" disco rather than mine, and partly due to post op recovery, I know marshals like to watch the technical stuff, as do we all, and agree we cannot be everywhere at once, but when someone is seen Im sure a watch can be put on them?