J@mes Posted November 5, 2008 Share Posted November 5, 2008 I wouldn't mind getting a bit more in to off road driving and have been looking at the winches and winch bumpers available. And as I have not seen ANY that I like the look of, I came across these on the superwinch site. http://www.dborc.co.uk/goodwinch/pdf/towballmountingkits.pdf So, are they actually any use at all? I dont want major competition style recovery, just something that might get me out of a hole! I know it should be "function over style" but I really really want to keep my Disco looking standard-ish. thanks, James Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BogMonster Posted November 5, 2008 Share Posted November 5, 2008 If you want something economical that will get you out of a hole you could do a lot worse than a hand winch - I have a T-Max version (there are others including the original Tirfor though that is expensive) and while I would never bin my hydraulic winch it actually works well its just hard work. Towball winches are a mixed bag. Bowyer's ones look ok, I had a cheapo version once and it was carp, supposed to do 15000kg rolling load, maybe it would shift 15 tons on greased ball bearings on an ice rink but it broke the first time I used it in anger pulling a fraction of that! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J@mes Posted November 5, 2008 Author Share Posted November 5, 2008 well we have tirfors at work for rehanging the railway overhead traction cable when it falls down so I might be able to sneak one out at weekends... any other ideas appreciated! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Smith Posted November 5, 2008 Share Posted November 5, 2008 Never used a towball mounted winch, but ou won't go far wrong with a Tirfor. Haven't got any spare ones have you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GBMUD Posted November 5, 2008 Share Posted November 5, 2008 The thing with towball mounting winches is the weight. Once you are stuck in the mud you will be able to enjoy getting 40+kg of winch out of the back and carrying it through the mud to the front where you have to aim it onto a towball which may be underwater. Not my idea of fun. I have one of DB's over bumper winch cradles with a TDS. IMHO it looks much nicer than any of the winch bumpers I have seen - almost like a factory option. Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smo Posted November 5, 2008 Share Posted November 5, 2008 The biggest problem i forsee with a towball mounted winch is exceeding the rating for the ball hitch, and it breaking when under load and becoming a 40kg++ missile on a wire rope...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BogMonster Posted November 5, 2008 Share Posted November 5, 2008 I like Bowyer's Bikini too (ooer) similar to the one I have on my Milemarker but it looks better than mine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom Posted November 5, 2008 Share Posted November 5, 2008 The biggest problem i forsee with a towball mounted winch is exceeding the rating for the ball hitch, and it breaking when under load and becoming a 40kg++ missile on a wire rope...... Has anyone ever seen a tow ball fail?? ( Normally the mounting is the weakest link ) Lee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nas90 Posted November 5, 2008 Share Posted November 5, 2008 I agree with Chris that once you are stuck and you need to attach the winch and you are up to your armpits in mud......... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smo Posted November 5, 2008 Share Posted November 5, 2008 Has anyone ever seen a tow ball fail?? ( Normally the mounting is the weakest link )Lee Towballs are not rated anything like as high as the stall value of a half decent winch - its only a matter of time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GBMUD Posted November 5, 2008 Share Posted November 5, 2008 Towballs are not rated anything like as high as the stall value of a half decent winch - its only a matter of time. What is the stall value of a half decent winch? An 8274 will pull 8000lbs on the first wrap as I understand it. 8000/2200=3.64 tons. A 50mm towball is rated to tow 3.5 tonnes so, assuming that means it can do so on a 30 degree slope and has a safety factor built in, I cannot see a big problem. Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
honitonhobbit Posted November 5, 2008 Share Posted November 5, 2008 50mm towballs are rated from 1.5tonnes to 5 tonnes depending on design I watched a prat of a HATO tow a 44tonner up a slip road the other day. Disco 3 with a 3.5 tonne towball on. Allow 10 percent fror a rolling load and add 1/60th of the weight per drgree of slope. Not only is that Disco a rolling disaster zone but that is one tough old tow ball Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom Posted November 5, 2008 Share Posted November 5, 2008 Towballs are not rated anything like as high as the stall value of a half decent winch - its only a matter of time. The SWL rate of a standard tow ball is 3.5 t ?? And am I right in saying the SWL is normally a 7th of the overall rating?? Anything like those figures would need a mighty large winch to cause a failure...........................I've never seen or heard of any tow balls breaking, now naff mountings, recovery points and rusty cross members, theres another story! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smo Posted November 5, 2008 Share Posted November 5, 2008 The SWL rate of a standard tow ball is 3.5 t ?? And am I right in saying the SWL is normally a 7th of the overall rating?? Anything like those figures would need a mighty large winch to cause a failure...........................I've never seen or heard of any tow balls breaking, now naff mountings, recovery points and rusty cross members, theres another story! No, 7x is for lifting. Its more like 3x on a towball - which would give a huge rating, but double or triple line with a heavy stuck vehicle and winch at stall and you'd exceed it. Also ratings are for new, non fatigued loading, not the kind of loads a winch would exert. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GBMUD Posted November 5, 2008 Share Posted November 5, 2008 No, 7x is for lifting. Its more like 3x on a towball - which would give a huge rating, but double or triple line with a heavy stuck vehicle and winch at stall and you'd exceed it. Also ratings are for new, non fatigued loading, not the kind of loads a winch would exert. I assume that a towball is for a 3.5tonne rolling load, not a lifting load, so rather less then 3.5t. Either way, a trailer is likely to apply shock loads to the towball rather than the smooth(ish) loading up of a winch. Either way, I do not like towball mounts. Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b101uk Posted November 5, 2008 Share Posted November 5, 2008 50mm towballs are rated from 1.5tonnes to 5 tonnes depending on design 50mm tow balls with 2 bolt flange (BS Au 114a) are rated at NO more than 3.5 tonnes in the EU. 5 tonne ones with 4 bolt flange (BS Au 24) are ball & pin type ware the 50mm ball is rated at 3.5 tonnes & the pin at 5 tonnes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve_d Posted November 5, 2008 Share Posted November 5, 2008 If a ball type winch is used then you will be restricted to only pulling to the rear. If you wanted to pull from the front you would have to start by fitting a rather substantial bumper on which to mount the ball. By this time you could have gone for a winch bumper. I would go the winch bumper route. If the winch is of sufficient size to do the job you will find it is all you can do to pick it up let alone trying to stagger about in the mud to deploy it. Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
honitonhobbit Posted November 5, 2008 Share Posted November 5, 2008 Close but not the cookie winner It's what's written on it eg Orange painted single plate folded ball hitch with integral pin = 1500kgs SWL HD 5tonne combo hitch with 4 bolts is rated 5 tonne pin and 5 tonne ball, whereas Dixon Bate 4 bolter is 5 tonne pin 3.5tonne pin and hitch Any of these without the pin are null and void I agree with Chris on this one Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J@mes Posted November 5, 2008 Author Share Posted November 5, 2008 not sure on what kind of rating by ball has - its a twin electric setup that has adjustable height and is also a locking pin hitch too (the type with a spring loaded lock/free handle), looks like its been on there a while, was this kind of thing fitted from new? could cope with a rear winch bumper, but as I said - i think the front mounts look terrible! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom Posted November 5, 2008 Share Posted November 5, 2008 So.............has anyone ever seen a failed tow ball? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mo Murphy Posted November 5, 2008 Share Posted November 5, 2008 Whether the tow ball is strong enough or not, I can't say I'd fancy lugging a 9000lb winch around even just from the load bay to the front and back especially as I suspect that in this case it would have steel rope ! James, if you are going to fit a winch, do it properly and save yourself a whole lot of bother. HTH Mo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b101uk Posted November 5, 2008 Share Posted November 5, 2008 Close but not the cookie winnerIt's what's written on it HD 5tonne combo hitch with 4 bolts is rated 5 tonne pin and 5 tonne ball, whereas Dixon Bate 4 bolter is 5 tonne pin 3.5tonne pin and hitch true, but it is the LAW in the EU that 50mm tow balls shall not be used on trailers over 3.5 tonnes which overrides what’s written on the hitch even if its more than >3.5t also most people don’t understand what’s written on towing couplings & that KG (S, K, C) ratings MUST be used in conjunction with KN (V, D, Dc) values. e.g. Q1: your trailer coupling has a rating of 3500kg & a D of 17KN, with your trailer fully loaded at 3500kg what is the maximum weight of the towing vehicle you can use? A: 2767kg B: 3432kg C: 3997kg D: 4375kg hint: its less odd than the others Q2: your 3500kg 2 axel trailer has a load bed 4.5m long & the drawbar length taken from the centreline of the load bed to the centre of the tow ball is 3.95m & the towing vehicle has steel springs, what is the minimum V value of the towing hitch you may use? A: 6.7KN B: 8.18KN C: 10.9KN D: 13.1KN hint: think HT bolt markings for an extra point your towing vehicle has air suspension which is taken as 1.8m/sec², which of A, B, C & D above would apply? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
q-rover Posted November 6, 2008 Share Posted November 6, 2008 I don't know, that's why I never have towing equipment fitted to my vehicles. I do have a NAS receiver though, but with the appropriate adapter I only use it for recovery puposes. Although never had to use it so far. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tacr2man Posted November 6, 2008 Share Posted November 6, 2008 I for one have never seen a failed tow ball, I have seen towbar assembly ripped from the floor of a towing vehicle, and the a frame on trailers twisted like a cork scew, and many more such extremes. I have even seen vehicles lifted off the ground by their towball. I very much doubt that a normal portable tow ball electric winch could get anywhere near the point of failure of the actual towball. I think the original poster was thinking of rearward recovery when unable to progress further forward . so would not need to lug it round to the front and possibly under water or mud . JMHO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pugwash Posted November 6, 2008 Share Posted November 6, 2008 also most people don't understand what I just wrote i for one haven't got a clue what you just said b101uk but would be interested in an explanation of what all the numbers mean, what relevance they have in the real world and how you calculate values! Cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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