Working and making mods on your own vehicle

[Hillbilly Rebel]

still was a technical reply though wasnt it

anyways long and short of it ...

you will still be able to use your exsisting MT's for the rest of their legal life but any sold after that date will have to have the " S" MARK on them (" s " for silent)

[Guest diesel_jim]

you will still be able to use your exsisting MT's for the rest of their legal life but any sold after that date will have to have the " S" MARK on them (" s " for silent)

Where did you get this info from? got a link? it's a rather crafty stealth rule they're trying to bring in though isn't it....

Just imagine the bigger picture... MT's are "banned", so an off roader goes laning on road tyres.... spins them lots (as there's no grip), makes a mess of said lane.

Rambliars/GLEAM etc take a look, and say "ohh... these nasty off roaders have churned up all the lovely grass etc etc".

ban for us.

Still, with the S marking on tyres, i wonder how good the Silent HImiler Terrain Extra tyres will be?

[disco_al]

you will still be able to use your exsisting MT's for the rest of their legal life but any sold after that date will have to have the " S" MARK on them (" s " for silent)

easy way round that then, buy three sets of wheels the same all with MT's on them, then as they wear down, change them. they can't do a lot if you have already bought them.....and who's going to notice if they are on identical rims??

[FridgeFreezer]

you will still be able to use your exsisting MT's for the rest of their legal life but any sold after that date will have to have the " S" MARK on them (" s " for silent)

Tyres needing an "S" mark after 2011 isn't quite the same as banning mud tyres is it? It's just another approval for the tyre manufacturer to tick the box before they can sell it - they already have to do load ratings, speed ratings, E mark, DOT mark, etc.

I can't imagine industry & agriculture across the EU would sit back and let anyone ban chunky tyres, given all the plant equipment in the world.

[martyn668]

One of the German 4x4 mags ran the story about tyres needing the S mark. They asked various tyre companies, and teh big American manufacturers said they didn't want to lose market share in Europe, so would modify their tyre designs to make them quieter (less knobbly at the same time?) Who knows what effect that would have on ability off road? The article said it would not apply to remoulds though (so I'm OK on my 7.50 x 16 Greenway Chacos.) As for buying a load and keeping them, I believe they are trying to bring in a shelf life of 5 years on tyres, so if they are too old, you have to bin them - so for a classic Series 1 that does 500 miles a year, you would be throwing away the tyres after 2500 miles. Don't know if they are date stamped yet though.

Bloody EU - how many vehicles actually drive around on MT's all the time anyway as a perrcentage of all vehicles on the road? 0.1%? Is it worth legislating for that?

[GBMUD]

Don't know if they are date stamped yet though.

They are currently date stamped, using a code.

Bloody EU - how many vehicles actually drive around on MT's all the time anyway as a perrcentage of all vehicles on the road? 0.1%? Is it worth legislating for that?

This is about noise emissions from all tyres, the EU have not singled out just mud tyres used on 4x4s. Some lorry tyres are very noisy - though I suspect they are remoulds anyway. If you happen to live right next to an A-road, as my in-laws do, you notice these things - like being able to hear a lorry coming over the hill by it's tyres alone.

Chris

[plasticbadger]

Regarding home maintenance of vehicles,

I share Jez's jaded view of the government. I read that a car uses up around 70% of it's through life energy use being built, so surely if you actually want to protect the environment the most effective thing to do is to continue using older, if less fuel efficent, cars and not build new ones. Bring in the Landrover where more than nearly any other make of car are still in use, therefore the most environmentally friendly car you can buy However, the government can't make much money from you or I going to the autofactor and getting the bits to service our cars ourself, but they can tax you to death on new cars, company cars, and dealer priced repairs.

Regarding drive past noise.

The small boat building industry is legistated by something called the Recreational Craft Directive (RCD) which new boats must be built in accordance with. The RCD applies europe wide, for any boat built, sold or used in europe. The RCD sets out a 'drive by' noise limit, measured by driving the boat past a noise meter at full speed. This would be the only way to classify tyres I would think, although tyre pressure would make a huge difference. This would rule out size etc as my 37" Superswampers are far quieter on the road than 205/16 simex copies. All off road tyres are far quieter than large tipper trucks, or motorcycles, as The Yak points out.

In the boats, if we produce a boat with twin 600hp V8 engines and completely open exhausts we just sell it as 'for racing use only' and the RCD doesn't apply

[reads90]

Regarding drive past noise.

The small boat building industry is legistated by something called the Recreational Craft Directive (RCD) which new boats must be built in accordance with. The RCD applies europe wide, for any boat built, sold or used in europe. The RCD sets out a 'drive by' noise limit, measured by driving the boat past a noise meter at full speed. This would be the only way to classify tyres I would think, although tyre pressure would make a huge difference. This would rule out size etc as my 37" Superswampers are far quieter on the road than 205/16 simex copies. All off road tyres are far quieter than large tipper trucks, or motorcycles, as The Yak points out.

In the boats, if we produce a boat with twin 600hp V8 engines and completely open exhausts we just sell it as 'for racing use only' and the RCD doesn't apply

What i have wondered for years is how do harley motor bikes get away with it . Their bikes are really noisey out of the factory never mind when they have been played with . And the police or nobady says anything about them

[dollythelw]

What i have wondered for years is how do harley motor bikes get away with it . Their bikes are really noisey out of the factory never mind when they have been played with . And the police or nobady says anything about them

thats easy - you build pipes that sound goooood, and the volume becomes incidental

The rule we always applied was "if it makes old men and young boys smile then its right" that way the dibble wouldnt give us any hassle at all

[jacks906]

before they bring anything like this out surely they need to address all the car/vans/lorries that leave the production line already broke.

we have a van at work that we got with a broken side door that wasnt fitted correctly (3 days later it well off, when the bloke who had it, opened it) also we got a van with the wrong plates on it instead of being DF08 was FD08 they got pulled and the police found the problem.

an the cars i've fixed that have come out of the garage with "dodgy brakes", after new pipes being fitted, not all the joints werent done up so were leaking and the one that was tight was cross threaded an a brake nipple had been snapped off so hadn't been bleed

also new a mates car had its tyres changed but on one of the wheels the nuts hadnt been done up, resulting in the wheel falling off less than 200 yards from the tyre place

dave

[Cheesy]

Ok, maybe Ill get flamed for this but what was the case that the first post was referring to? The international forum seems to be very UK so the rest of the world probably doesn’t know.

In NZ we have to go through low volume vehicle certification which is pretty much a very stringent fitness test with a couple of stupid bits added in....

[jeremy996]

Ok, maybe Ill get flamed for this but what was the case that the first post was referring to? The international forum seems to be very UK so the rest of the world probably doesn’t know.

Lincolnshire Echo. This probably tells you most of what you want to know.

The driver is know to many of us either in person or by proxy on the LR fora. For some of us this may be a "but by the grace of God" moment. The reporting has been patchy but there have been allegations of poor work, suspension location failure and mis-matched brake calipers. The Court is still hearing evidence, so the final outcome is unknown.

[88inchthing]

Most mods are sold as "off-road use only" and all the usual disclaimers.

and as far as I'm aware most mechanics have no official qualifications to show they're any more competent than Joe public, which would make it rather tricky to regulate the industry as it stands.

Most mechanics are in fact Qualified. Three year apprenticeship which includes a day release city and guilds. Usually followed by a year or two of probation. Felt that needed saying.

I do however whole heartedly agree that as free people we have the right to work on our own vehicles/houses ect. I spent nine years as an M.O.T tester and saw all manner of repairs and mods. Some D.I.Y. work is shocking and dangerous and some is better than most Mechanics would turn out.

[Turbocharger]

That's true, but is 'time served' enough? I've had guys working for me with whom a six-month shoulder-to-shoulder would be worth a lifetime of 'apprenticeship' under a "just get it out the door" bodge merchant. The fact is, there's no surefire way to show you're qualified as a mechanic on a CV - so who polices the work they do? An MOT is only to show that it's not dangerous on the day, not an audit of the quality of the work. For example, Scotchloks are the work of the devil but they'll pass an MOT all day long.

[Cheesy]

As an aside to the possible poor workmanship of owners, I would think that vehicle 'neglect' would be a much bigger issue in the greater scheme of things.

[Phil Hancock]

Personally im not overly impressed by formal qualifications. During my apprentiship the top engineers at GEC Rugby could not explain why the job i was working on was creeping ahead of the direction of rotation in the lathe chuck even tho the jaws were flogged up tight with a 14lb sledge hammer, the job was a tail shaft for the SS Canberra 28 1/4" diameter x 55' long. It was down to the torsion making the shaft flick slightly and shock the job around in the jaws that myself and another operator deduced. At the garage i worked in for 3 years i was the main mechanic(time served as a turner not mechanic) who had quite a few years of landy experience, the boss took on a time served X-REME mechanic fresh from his military service with a folder full of qualification certificates. He was given 5 tyres to fit to a set of rims 1hr 10mins before knocking off time using the old fasioned method with tyre levers and hide hammer. By knocking off time he had got one mounted but not inflated, by the time he had washed up and got on his bike less than 15 minutes later i had mounted and inflated the other 4! He was also given a pair of track rod ends to change on a SWB, a week or so after the job the vehicle owner came back with bald front tyres, they had not been bald when the TRE's had been fitted, the TRE's had been screwed fully home so the tracking was set at about 1" toe in!!! A pair of springs to change that took all day when it should have been done in a couple of hours plus loads of other c@ck ups that i have now forgotten the details of, he did not last long.

[pat_pending]

While everyone is busy moaning about incompetent "professional" mechanics, of which there are plenty, don't forget there are incompetants in every trade or profession. I've found people in "IT" to be amongst the worst, I'm not just talking about PC/system repairers either. Software writers that seem to be so far up their own arses trying to be clever, that they loose sight of the fact that what they're supposed to creating often needs to be usable by "ordinary" people.

What "qualifications" do you need to set up your own computer business?

We're told the credit crunch is the fault of incompetent bankers and that children die as a result of incompetent social workers.

The difference is that in the great scheme of things mechanics are quite poorly paid, especially considering what they SHOULD know and the personal investment in tools. Pay peanuts, get monkeys.

I would love to see all professional mechanics licensed, as they are in the aircraft industry. Then they could get rid of the "Bodge" element in the trade. Then those of us that are truly qualified and experienced could command higher pay. It would put garage prices up, but then people could still choose to use unlicensed, back street garages and take the consequences.

[western]

I would love to see all professional mechanics licensed, as they are in the aircraft industry.

not all are, only those who work under civil aviation regs have a licenced engineer as thier shift boss or team leader, in the miitary aircraft world, most are ex-service personnel & highly trained & qualified [me included] & our work standards & competence are known to MoD/armed forces & our current employers.

[Turbocharger]

But of course, even then the best, time-served or qualified chap in the world can have a bad day. We've all 'checked' at the end of a job that everything's tight and found the one we spun on by hand - it all depends which nut it is...

[pat_pending]

But of course, even then the best, time-served or qualified chap in the world can have a bad day. We've all 'checked' at the end of a job that everything's tight and found the one we spun on by hand - it all depends which nut it is...

Absolutely.. But to bring the discussion back on topic, is there a future for the home mechanic? I'd say yes there is, certainly with older and less advanced vehicles.

The trouble is as more complex electronics and emissions related devices appear then legislation will demand tamper proofing. Even changing a set of brake pads, a straightforward enough job, is becoming more complicated. Electronic park brakes, ABS, traction control all operated by multi functional control units running CAN bus systems. It's not just a nuts and bolts job anymore as things require resetting following repair.

To go back to the court case that started all this, I've no doubt the insurance industry will be closely following goings on.

Whatever the outcome I'm sure it wont be good news for the insurance premiums of those who choose modify or repair their own vehicles. Ultimately it may well be insurance that drives the issue rather than legislation.

[Troddenmasses]

Ok, maybe Ill get flamed for this but what was the case that the first post was referring to?

Day 1

Day 2

Day 2 Update

Day 3

Day 4

Day 5

I don't want to make any comments about it, as I know absolutely nothing of the circumstances other than what I have read, but as I read the above, I find myself thinking "Seen that", "Done that" or "There for the grace of god...." For example, they have said in court that it was made from 5 vehicles - sounds terrible, but when you read it properly, it's the original vehicle (1) a second hand chassis (2), a replacement engine (3) a replacement gearbox (4) and a replacement rear axle (5). I can't help thinking "So what", engines die after a couple of hundred thousand miles, I know that i'm very heavy on gearboxes, rear chassis rot because they haven't got lots of engine oil splashing on them, and I know that I have replaced a couple of rear axles in the past as an easy way of getting disk brakes. It's all down to how you tell it.

Anyway, this thread wasn't meant to look particularly at that one accident (or MT tyres - where the hell did that one come from?) but was my initial thoughts of what could happen if there were a number of high profile accidents with this type of vehicle. As most people nowadays use garages for absolutely everything, it wouldn't take much for the government to take a knee jerk reaction and stop anybody who wasn't officially registered from doing anything other than changing the oil and filter.

[rant]Don't say that it couldn't happen because people will lose their livelyhoods - from the top of my head it has happened twice in the past few years. First the pistol ban was a knee jerk reaction to a terrible incident. Lots of people (gun dealers, gun smiths and range owners) lost their jobs when it was decided that the best way to deal with illegal firearms was to ban the legal ones. Lots and lots of law abiding people (I would imagine more people than drive Land Rovers for recreation) - myself included, lost their hobbies because of one poorly thought out law. The other thing that springs to mind is the fox hunting ban. Whilst i'm not a fan of fox hunting, or the chinless wonders that one sees dressed up for the hunt, I can see that it was another knee jerk reaction from a totally urban based government trying to win sympathy with guardian readers, rather than thinking about the people in the country whose lives and livelyhoods depended on the hunting. [/rant]

[disco_al]

the boss took on a time served X-REME mechanic fresh from his military service with a folder full of qualification certificates

If he was anything like the ones we have to deal with here, then they are complete muppets (no offence to the ones that do know their stuff).

There is no qualification better than experience when it comes to mechanics these days - pieces of paper with a grade from city & guilds on it is fine - but that only proves that he/she can complete a task in a classroom.

Better form of qualification would be a portfolio with photographic evidence.

Years ago when i was attending Henley college as part of my NVQ course, we had to strip an engine down on the bench, 20 mins later it was apart, whilstthe rest of the class were still getting to grips with the torque wrench.

[Pete Attryde]

I would love to see all professional mechanics licensed, as they are in the aircraft industry.

And speaking as one who has stopped working in the civil aircraft maintenance world partly because of the new generation of 'Licensed' engineers.

A scary number of the 'youngsters' qualifying did know how to operate a screwdriver let alone tell whether a job had been done correctly as they leave school and go straight to college and 'learn' how to pass the exams to become a 'licensed' engineer with very little relevant practical training.

Pete.

[pat_pending]

And speaking as one who has stopped working in the civil aircraft maintenance world partly because of the new generation of 'Licensed' engineers.

A scary number of the 'youngsters' qualifying did know how to operate a screwdriver let alone tell whether a job had been done correctly as they leave school and go straight to college and 'learn' how to pass the exams to become a 'licensed' engineer with very little relevant practical training.

Pete.

And the answer is?

If we want the highest standards in any industry there has to be some form of regulation.

[Pete Attryde]

And the answer is?

If we want the highest standards in any industry there has to be some form of regulation.

I totally agree, I just feel that the way the current license is issued is flawed, as I feel there is a need for practical experience (may be in the form of a proper apprenticeship) as well as the paper qualification. Especially as the licensed engineer is effectively taking reponsibility for 100's of people's lives when he/she sign's the work off.

Pete.