Tomcat Nev Posted February 20, 2006 Share Posted February 20, 2006 On the theme of Military recovery and their skill or lack of: Our SSM got a 110 stuck at Bovington (under my instruction.....) we tried a couple of tugs with the issued KERR with another 110 and then a Bedford (yes - SSM was getting desperate and pulled rank) then ABRO were called to winch the 110 out. However, the driver of the Foden is an offroader and used to trial with SCOR so he decided to do a Kinetic recovery. I was told to sit in the vehicle as it was my fault (now it was my fault as it looked dangerous). The Foden took three ever increasing runs and eventually pulled the 110 out, with me lying on the floor across the cab!! However, not all the 110 came out........................... parts of the rear axle and braking system were left behind. The 110 took three weeks in ABRO before being back with the unit and one interview without coffee for me and the SSM and all was well! Cheers Nev Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pongo Posted February 20, 2006 Share Posted February 20, 2006 Speaking as an ex-REME type of some 26 years standing, I can tell you that KERR is NOT ALLOWED in the military in soft-skinned vehicles, i.e. Rovers, Bedfords etc. Only armoured vehicles can use this technique, and the rope issued is commensurately large. If a Land Rover is bogged, then you are issued a perfectly good shovel which has two purposes; one to dig the truck out, and then to dig yourself out of the sh*t for getting stuck in the first place. Referring to the Chinook recovery earlier in this thread, we used to do other recovery's quite regularly in N.I; puling stuck cattle out of the bogs. Universally known as a "beef extract". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astro_Al Posted February 20, 2006 Share Posted February 20, 2006 John - it's not a recovery item, but there's a good example here of why relying on the hard top instead of a roll cage, or at least bar, isn't such a bright idea. http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread....wagon+roll+cage Al. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Jordan Posted February 20, 2006 Share Posted February 20, 2006 I understand the little Scorpions and Scimitars got on fairly well in 82 though Yep my boy's "The Blues & Royals" My old boss was the only person to claim an aircraft kill in the Bristish Army in an armoured vehicle ever down there. B) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Boy Posted February 20, 2006 Share Posted February 20, 2006 True. Tracks aren't necessarily the solution to everything though How do you do that!? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BogMonster Posted February 20, 2006 Share Posted February 20, 2006 How do you do that!? Full story here Not a dangerous recovery, but undeniably an F great big one Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GBMUD Posted April 7, 2006 Share Posted April 7, 2006 I knew I had these pictures somewhere... Just took a while to find them. When this shackle (Made by Cadbury and wrapped in foil it seems ) failed due to being used sideways: The shackle and it's pin went off in much the same direction - the direction of it's owner and rigger IIRC. Can you tell which one went through which hole? ISTR that the driver's seat stopped the pin and that the shackle did this to the windscreen - unusual as I have seen far worse damage. Nobody was seriously hurt fortunatly but a valuable lesson was learned. I have also seen a shackle go right through a rear mounted radiator in an Eagle jeep and embed itself in the battery, utterly destroying it. Again. nobody hurt. Another I have seen is where a 110 owner had removed the rear drop plate and bolted the towball direct to the rear crossmember. He had then added a spacer behind the towball to allow clearance for a trailer hitch. What he had not factored in was the extra length of bolt needed to allow the spacer. This meant that, as we later discovered, the towball was held on by 2 turns of thread on each bolt. When he got stuck, as 110s inevitably will , and a (KERR IIRC) rope was attached to the towball at one end and a D90 at the other the nuts came off the bolts and the towball UTTERLY DESTROYED the NSF headlamp, inner, outer and wingtop of the 90. It went through like a cannon ball. Terrifying. I may be able to find a picture of it, IIRC it was before digital cameras were popular. Cheers Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted April 7, 2006 Author Share Posted April 7, 2006 Yowzers, that's nasty. I feel another newsletter feature coming on! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
landrover598 Posted April 7, 2006 Share Posted April 7, 2006 Wow That looks like a fairly decent sized shackle too Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GBMUD Posted April 7, 2006 Share Posted April 7, 2006 Wow That looks like a fairly decent sized shackle too It was; but untested and used wrongly the size is less of an issue. Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jules Posted April 7, 2006 Share Posted April 7, 2006 It was; but untested and used wrongly the size is less of an issue.Chris But it looks like a cheap shakle. I have a load of broken lifting shakles and lifting eyes etc collected from site that I used to use when doing driver training. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark90 Posted April 7, 2006 Share Posted April 7, 2006 When I was new to all this stuff and a bit green, well greener than I am now, and didn't know about tested shackles I bought some from David Bowyer, they are the only untested shackles that I own and tend not to use them now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Posted April 7, 2006 Share Posted April 7, 2006 I got an untested/unrated shackle from mr bowyer 'free' with a rope I bought. I have never used it, and it kind of worries me that somone who is regarded as something of an expert in that particular field is selling chocolate shackles... in fact the foil is already coming off mine! Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark90 Posted April 7, 2006 Share Posted April 7, 2006 it kind of worries me that somone who is regarded as something of an expert in that particular field is selling chocolate shackles... Exactly. As a newbie and not knowing what was suitable stuff for recovery I thought I'd play it safe and buy from a well known expert in the field who I assumed would be selling stuff that was well up to the job. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freeagent Posted April 7, 2006 Share Posted April 7, 2006 thats shocking, i can't believe he sells stuff like that... i've got a few un'rated shackles that i tend to leave in the truck for 'road towing' as it don't matter much if i leave one at the roadside in the dark.... bought a couple of 6.5T rated ones at Old Sodbury on sat for £3 each, so buying quality need not be expensive. recovery gear should NEVER break if its the correct size/ rating for the job, well maintained and used correctly. All my stuff is miles over-rated but i'd rather use the sort of shackles usually reserved for recovering tanks than have the broken remains of a 'Bowyer special' embedded in my chest.... my mate and i bought some MONSTERS from an MOD auction a year or so ago, SWL 12T, with a saftey factor of 7:1 they should be good for 80T before they let go!!! B) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freeagent Posted April 7, 2006 Share Posted April 7, 2006 Having worked as a recovery marshall at one of the big shows it absolutly staggers me how dumb some people are when it come to recovery, and recovery gear. we worked dragging people out of the muddy bits/ water splash at one particular show and we'd often have people insisting we could drag their bogged disco, complete with 5 passengers out of the goo by wrapping a rope aroud their bullbar, or even worse, those who had 'modified' their old shed and attached recovery points in such a way that the slightest little pull would rip them out. my personal faves included a bloke in Disco who repeatedly drove, and failed to get through a realy easy mud section, then acused us of not knowing how to recover him, and complaining to the management when HE, not us damaged his motor. or, the Nupty in the 110 CSW who'd fitted a drop plate, with M8 bolts.... and insisted we could drag him out with it, as it would be fine if you get the chance, go and be a marshall at a landrover show.... i never believed these monkeys were out there..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GBMUD Posted April 7, 2006 Share Posted April 7, 2006 if you get the chance, go and be a marshall at a landrover show.... i never believed these monkeys were out there..... I had a similar experience but with the numpty on the front end of the rope. Basicly, the "official marshal" at Billing did a snatch recovery using a dead rope and without checking that we in the stuck (only wet electrics and on a firm base) vehicle were ready. I fell out of the back of the 101 were in and into about 18" of muddy water. Highly amusing looking back but it could so easily have been different. All I lost was my dignity and my glasses. Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freeagent Posted April 7, 2006 Share Posted April 7, 2006 totally agree Chris... last time i did it, we wandered over to the off-road course on our 'day off' to have a look at what was going on... only to find another 'marshall' directing recoverys done with a digger and a length of chain...... scary stuff... i know who he is and have vowed never to be rostered on with him... an absolute tool..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BogMonster Posted April 7, 2006 Share Posted April 7, 2006 Rebel 4x4 do rated ones for a good price, can't remember what they cost but they were 4750kg stamped yellow pin jobbies. Brownchurch also do them for not too many £. I have some unrated ones which I use for light duty work and on-road towing but I don't use them for heavy stuff with the exception of the 'kin great big one that came with my snatch block which I assume is safe for the purpose which it was supplied for (and it is about twice the size of the 4750kg ones) But I prefer not to use a shackle at all if it can be avoided, not with any sort of stretchy rope. The "towing points" fitted to the bottom of many bull bars are bl&&dy dangerous IMHO. My Discovery A bar has them on and I would not dream of towing off them in a million years. I pulled somebody out a couple of years ago, very very carefully, using a bull bar because there was nothing else to pull off, and the thing was bending and twisting as soon as there was any force on it. Fortunately the vehicle came out very easily or I would not have continued. There is actually nothing inherently wrong with using a digger and a length of chain or wire hawser for pulling something out, in fact in many ways using something like that is safest of all as there is lots of controllable force, everything is happening fairly slowly and there is nothing to store energy which can let go and wreck anybody. I refer to the Hitachi digger recovery thread I posted a couple of months back, during that recovery a 1" hawser let go with a D5 bulldozer pulling on the end of it and nothing happened except the bulldozer suddenly drove off without the digger... no flailing, just a bit of a bang and some swearing. Lots of potential for damage/elongation to LR if not done sensibly though! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GBMUD Posted June 24, 2008 Share Posted June 24, 2008 Further to this thread, I came accross the following picture at the weekend. This was done by a tow-ball coming off a car being recovered. Makes you think. The conversation about the towball coming off started when a recovery on a playday went wrong between two Pinzgauers. One was stuck, the other tugging at him gently using a strap when 'BANG' the towball came off the stuck truck. Fortunately the strap was 'dead' and so little kinetic energy was released and no damage done. It turned out that the owner of the stuck Pinz had attached a regular 3.5t ball to the NATO attachment point on the rear of the truck - and because the holes were small had used small (M10?) bolts. Thanks god that they did not have a 'kinetic' rope and a gun-ho attitude as so many do on playdays. Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GBMUD Posted June 24, 2008 Share Posted June 24, 2008 Further to this thread, I came accross the following picture at the weekend. This was done by a tow-ball coming off a car being recovered. Makes you think. The conversation about the towball coming off started when a recovery on a playday went wrong between two Pinzgauers. One was stuck, the other tugging at him gently using a strap when 'BANG' the towball came off the stuck truck. Fortunately the strap was 'dead' and so little kinetic energy was released and no damage done. It turned out that the owner of the stuck Pinz had attached a regular 3.5t ball to the NATO attachment point on the rear of the truck - and because the holes were small had used small (M10?) bolts. Thanks god that they did not have a 'kinetic' rope and a gun-ho attitude as so many do on playdays. Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GBMUD Posted June 24, 2008 Share Posted June 24, 2008 Further to this thread, I came accross the following picture at the weekend. This was done by a tow-ball coming off a car being recovered. Makes you think. The conversation about the towball coming off started when a recovery on a playday went wrong between two Pinzgauers. One was stuck, the other tugging at him gently using a strap when 'BANG' the towball came off the stuck truck. Fortunately the strap was 'dead' and so little kinetic energy was released and no damage done. It turned out that the owner of the stuck Pinz had attached a regular 3.5t ball to the NATO attachment point on the rear of the truck - and because the holes were small had used small (M10?) bolts. Thanks god that they did not have a 'kinetic' rope and a gun-ho attitude as so many do on playdays. Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mo Murphy Posted June 24, 2008 Share Posted June 24, 2008 You'd think they'd have learned after it happened the first time, to do it 3 times is plain silly Mo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted June 24, 2008 Author Share Posted June 24, 2008 Niiiiiiiice Permission to steal that for the club newsletter Chris? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BogMonster Posted June 24, 2008 Share Posted June 24, 2008 You'd think they'd have learned after it happened the first time, to do it 3 times is plain silly Mo Bluddy scary though Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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