andyb Posted September 24, 2009 Share Posted September 24, 2009 Just found this link over on Difflock. I'm posting here for maximum exposure; if the mods want to move it then feel free https://www.tektrek.com.au/images/4WD%20RECOVERY_How%20to%20join%20recovery%20straps.pdf (260kb) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmgemini Posted September 24, 2009 Share Posted September 24, 2009 I use the stick method. Never thought about a towell. mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BogMonster Posted September 24, 2009 Share Posted September 24, 2009 I use the method of using a rope that is long enough in the first place which is also quite effective Good link though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmgemini Posted September 24, 2009 Share Posted September 24, 2009 I use the method of using a rope that is long enough in the first place which is also quite effective Good link though. Me too but when you are stuck you do have to improvise. I did buy a very long strap when I came back home. mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aragorn Posted September 24, 2009 Share Posted September 24, 2009 The PDF says knots alone are bad, either becuase they become impossible to undo or can come apart... I'm pretty sure there are knots that when tied correctly will not slip under tension, but can easily be undone once the load has been removed. Clearly you need to know what your doing, but i wouldnt rule it out completely as an option, and some rudimentary knot tying skills are always useful to have. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diff Posted September 24, 2009 Share Posted September 24, 2009 I have a small piece of strong carpet which I roll up and put in the join, works very well. Regards, Diff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retroanaconda Posted September 24, 2009 Share Posted September 24, 2009 The idea of a strap or rope 'cutting down' anything in the way, even a human body, is just rubbish though. Even a steel wire snapping under breaking tension won't cut someone in half. Granted it would be painful, but no-one is going to be killed by it. A shackle, bit of recovery point, or a big log on the end of it could be fatal though, that's what one needs to be careful of. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SiWhite Posted September 24, 2009 Share Posted September 24, 2009 I'm pretty sure there are knots that when tied correctly will not slip under tension, but can easily be undone once the load has been removed. Indeed, the Bowline is very strong and always easy to untie afterwards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pacey Posted September 24, 2009 Share Posted September 24, 2009 Can you use a reef not with with a second reef above with a wedge in it very effective for stopping tightening. Of course as mentioned just sure you carry a strop/line long enough in the first place. Even is the knot becomes impossible to untie the product has done its job time to replace. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aragorn Posted September 24, 2009 Share Posted September 24, 2009 yer, i was putting a Bowline on the end of my clothes line earlier today Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LandyManLuke Posted September 24, 2009 Share Posted September 24, 2009 A bowline is a great knot, and should be able to be undone in rope easy enough, especially if you double up on the loops made first in the standing part. Problems can arise when it's tied in webbing though, as it tightens down in such a way that makes it hard to 'break is back' as you would a normal bowline. A double, or even triple sheet bend works quite well in webbing, as the friction of the multiple loops shares the load and stops the knot bighting down quite so much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BogMonster Posted September 25, 2009 Share Posted September 25, 2009 The whole idea of a bowline is to be able to undo it after it has been loaded which is why it is used on boats a lot for tow lines etc. As for the suggestion above about flailing ropes not cutting someone down - rather you than me to stand in the way of anything that has any significant weight. Plenty of older vehicles here have inch-deep dents in the alli back door where nylon tow ropes have snapped and whipped back to smack the door. I'd not wish to be standing in the way of steel winch cable; I wouldn't be surprised if it would go in to the bone even if it didn't take the limb off. I'd guess a bit of winch cable across the neck area would be pretty final too. While the loads are much higher and the cables thicker, plenty of fishermen have been killed in the deep sea fisheries here when steel trawl cables have snapped - same thing, just bigger. Some of them have literally been cut in half. I'm reliably informed it ain't pretty and I have no intention of trying a scaled down version using a winch wire... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJL Posted September 25, 2009 Share Posted September 25, 2009 Heres a great resource for anyone wanting to learn to tie some useful knots including the bowline (Probably one of the most useful knots anyone can ever learn to tie) http://www.animatedknots.com/ James Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmgemini Posted September 25, 2009 Share Posted September 25, 2009 Don't forget the "thief knot" mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retroanaconda Posted September 25, 2009 Share Posted September 25, 2009 The whole idea of a bowline is to be able to undo it after it has been loaded which is why it is used on boats a lot for tow lines etc. As for the suggestion above about flailing ropes not cutting someone down - rather you than me to stand in the way of anything that has any significant weight. Plenty of older vehicles here have inch-deep dents in the alli back door where nylon tow ropes have snapped and whipped back to smack the door. I'd not wish to be standing in the way of steel winch cable; I wouldn't be surprised if it would go in to the bone even if it didn't take the limb off. I'd guess a bit of winch cable across the neck area would be pretty final too. While the loads are much higher and the cables thicker, plenty of fishermen have been killed in the deep sea fisheries here when steel trawl cables have snapped - same thing, just bigger. Some of them have literally been cut in half. I'm reliably informed it ain't pretty and I have no intention of trying a scaled down version using a winch wire... You may be more qualified to judge on this then, but all I am going by is on the Discovery show Mythbusters where they tested this. They had some steel wire and a dead pig and all it did when breaking back under tension was cause bad bruising/impact marks. I'm not suggesting it would be a pleasant experience with a winch wire, merely pointing out that the safety warnings are grossly over-exaggerated. I will though mirror my earlier point of a lump of metal on the end of said wire when snapping back is another matter altogether! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
disco_al Posted September 25, 2009 Share Posted September 25, 2009 (edited) d'oh - what he ^^ said Edited September 25, 2009 by disco_al Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aragorn Posted September 25, 2009 Share Posted September 25, 2009 It all depends how it hits you though, winch wire across the face is going to have very different consequences than if it hits your legs for instance... Better having overexaggerated claims than what would eventually turn into "nah dont need to worry about it, it'll only give you some bruises" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smo Posted September 25, 2009 Share Posted September 25, 2009 The ONLY knot that can be undone whilst under tension is the round turn and two half hitches, which is not ideal for joining 2 ropes however is great for attaching to recovery loops. the bowline mentioned above is ok to undo when the strain is off if you can break its back, smaller lines and high ammounts of tension can tighten it so much it becomes impossible though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LandyManLuke Posted September 26, 2009 Share Posted September 26, 2009 The ONLY knot that can be undone whilst under tension is the round turn and two half hitches What absolute rubbish.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted September 26, 2009 Share Posted September 26, 2009 Even a steel wire snapping under breaking tension won't cut someone in half. You can test that then The average 8mm steel rope that comes with most winches may not be enough to kill you if it pings, but that's not to say it can't do some serious damage - especially if there's anything (hook, tow point, etc.) flying about on the end. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smo Posted September 26, 2009 Share Posted September 26, 2009 What absolute rubbish.... Not its not, in the sailing world, of which i know "a fair bit" as an RYA qualified instructor i can guarentee that of the knots taught in the boating world, if you tie up to a quayside and the tide drops and puts it under serious tension the only knot you'll get undone is the round turn and two half hitches.....dont believe me?? Hang a handrover off a cliff and see what knotts you can undo!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LandyManLuke Posted September 26, 2009 Share Posted September 26, 2009 Not its not, in the sailing world, of which i know "a fair bit" as an RYA qualified instructor i can guarentee that of the knots taught in the boating world, if you tie up to a quayside and the tide drops and puts it under serious tension the only knot you'll get undone is the round turn and two half hitches.....dont believe me?? Hang a handrover off a cliff and see what knotts you can undo!!!! Any knot tied with turns round a ring or post will generate enough friction to hold a load, hell, enough turns will hold a load on their own, with no knot at all. Turns will let you hold a load, and lower a load under tension. That's different to being unable to undo the knot, which is what you originally were talking about. Nearly every knot I know can be released under load if finished with a bight, such that the working part can be used to pull the bight out. OK, it's not in your RYA book, but there's plenty of us in 'the boating world' who don't just tie the knots in the book. Granted, yes, there is a point where enough tension will prevent a bight being pulled through. I would also argue that at that point you would not be able to undo the first hitch on a round turn and two half hitches, especially if there's only one turn. Making off to post, ring, or bollard, and requiring the ability to gradually release the tension is certainly not a catch-all situation. There are plenty of other knots/hitches which can be used to tension a line, be made off, and then released whilst still under load. Luke Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smo Posted September 27, 2009 Share Posted September 27, 2009 I disagree but really cant be arse to argue, the whole point about the hitches is that they arent under load, hence the ability to release them, if they are its tied wrong! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retroanaconda Posted September 27, 2009 Share Posted September 27, 2009 You can test that then The average 8mm steel rope that comes with most winches may not be enough to kill you if it pings, but that's not to say it can't do some serious damage - especially if there's anything (hook, tow point, etc.) flying about on the end. I don't mean to be rude Fridge, but that was exactly my point. It isn't going to cut you in half, but with a lump of metal on the end it could easily kill you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted September 27, 2009 Share Posted September 27, 2009 I don't mean to be rude Fridge, but that was exactly my point. It isn't going to cut you in half, but with a lump of metal on the end it could easily kill you. No problem - I can see the big difference between being cut in half or just killed now Also, is anyone else getting FireFox telling them the link is potentially dodgy? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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