B+E Licence

[Adam001]

Hey,

I didn't know what place to put this in. I just had my trailer B+E licence today and failed it, I am curious to get your opinion on the terms of my failure.

I got a serious for a traffic light, The light was green however I expected it to go red so had already begun to slow down, The light then proceeded to go amber before I was at the point of no return (final white arrow) therefore I checked my mirrors and promntly came to a halt (took a little effort but nothing substantial). After I continued on and thought nothing of it.

After the test during the debreif, the examiner said I should have proceeded, when I argued the point he stated I should have accelerated and allowed the rear axle of the car and the trailer to pass the red light as apposed to using the brakes, purely on the basis that I had a HGV behind me that could have hit me (miles behind)

Now as far as I can see this is mental! I cannot disprove it, but would like to confirm the theory.

Considering if you had a trailer and you ran a red light camera, is it actually legal to run a red light so long as the front axle passes the line in time like the examiner is suggesting?

Other than that, the test was otherwise very simple...just begs the question...what actually is running a red light?! :S

Adam

[FridgeFreezer]

Step back a bit - why are you slowing down for a green light in the first place?

[Adam001]

It's the new method, if you see a green light which has any chance of changing (i.e. pedestrian crossing with a pedestrian or illuminated 'wait' or a junction) you must let off the accelerator until you reach the point of no return, then accelerate again... I know, it's stupid

[JJB Serenity]

going through a red light is illegal. Going through an amber light is ok and if it changes to red as the rear of your vehicle goes through it that is ok too. I think the problem was you slowed for a green light which could be interpreted as careless driving if there is no apparent reason for slowing. If when you are taking your driving test you slow to a stop at a roundabout when no traffic is coming, you can fail.

[Adam001]

Ah so how do red light cameras work if it is ok for the rear wheels to cross a red?

The slowly down thing is completely fine if a traffic light is present, you have to do that now. But yeah you dont have to slow for roundabouts when it is clear.

[Top90]

Yes, fine for the rear to cross the line on a red light.

Think how lorries do it. Sometimes 10 meters of trailer goes through the red as the cab passed on a green.

I have always been under the impression you are only wrong if you cross the line with the front of the vehicle when the light is red.

[Adam001]

Ah, perhaps it appears that I am incorrect after all, have to admit though a serious for that is still a little OTT, ah well. Shame my instructor didn't call that during my training. At least someone on here might benefit from this though.

Still confused as to how red light cameras work though with that knowledge, hmm

[FridgeFreezer]

Red light cameras work by being reviewed by a human before a penalty is raised, I believe.

As I understand it, the rules is that on an amber you should stop if it safe to do so, and that, because the amber should have been plenty of warning, you must stop for a red.

Now, there are assumptions built into this: The phasing of the traffic lights is designed such that most vehicles travelling within the speed limit should be able to stop if they come up on an amber. Obviously the example of trucks, trailers, heavy loads, etc. it can be the case that even with notice given in writing you may not be able to stop in time, so allowances are made for that. The tester would probably rather see you drive decisively and continue past a changing light than do a panic fumble.

[Adam001]

Ah ok I agree with that.

Although it certainly wasn't a panicked fumble, quite controlled checking all angles. If I was past the point of no return I would have continued as normal, Just annoys me how they contradict themselves, just goes to show you cannot pass any driving test by doing things by the book.

[Top90]

While I don't want to provoke an argument, I think FF's post above illustrated the point.

Step back a bit - why are you slowing down for a green light in the first place?

You were slowing down or easing off on a green light. Which isn't in the book I believe.

I also know how frustrating it can be.

My wife has failed her test three times now. The last two times with 3 and 4 minors only, followed by one serious only that was not really that serious in the last few minutes!

One serious was a "hessitation" as she thought about turning into the next right, saw it was a no entry and continued. But as she slowed a bit, it's a hessitation!

[Adam001]

Don't worry about the slowing down thing, it is the correct method, the examiner even said so on that one...it doesn't make sense I know, but I assure you it is now what they encourage.

Much like how engine braking is also now frowned apon, if slowing down from 30mph or more you should not go down to 2nd gear, you should come to a halt in third, even though that means you have to coast for quite a distance, which effectively renders you not in full control.

[samd35]

To support Adam, Ive Just passed my B+E today and yes the slowing down approaching traffic lights that have been green for a while or have a pedesrtian waiting is the correct thing to do or atleast thats what my instructor reminded me this morning before the test. As for stopping at lights and failing I think alot of it is down to the examiner. I belive that the traffic light cameras take 2 pictures and then it is reveiwed before issuing a penalty

[James90]

The engine braking is a good one, gone are the days where engine braking should be used as an effective way of slowing the vehicle, as to not overheat the brakes (expecially when towing) Its now viewed as the opposite, as your engine being on 'overrun' is apparently bad for the environment - unburnt fuel etc etc..

What did the rest of the test involve? Im looking to do mine soon..

[samd35]

The test is reversing in to a space, a breaking thing from 20mph stop in length of vehicle, coupling and uncoupling and then general driving all done at test center other than the driving bit!

[simonr]

I received 3 points for crossing a light on green in slow moving traffic but the rear axle crossing the line on red. The first photograph clearly showed that the front was clear of the line and my speed was clocked at 10 mph. In the second photo both the front and rear had cleared but only just.

You could see that there was congestion at the roundabout and also that a truck was blocking my view (and the cameras view) of the light in the middle of the roundabout.

I tried arguing that at the point the light changed, I had already passed it - but they said that I should have stopped before the line until my exit into the roundabout was clear.

These are the only points I've ever received - and I still feel very bitter about it. My solicitor said that to defend it in court would cost me a couple of grand in legal & court fees if I lost. Also, they could award more points and a bigger fine. He said, unfair as it seems, it's too big a gamble to fight when the fine is small by comparison. Don't bother unless the points would likely loose you your licence.

Now I just stand on the brakes if there is any danger of the light changing before I'm completely clear!

Si

[FridgeFreezer]

The engine braking is a good one, gone are the days where engine braking should be used as an effective way of slowing the vehicle, as to not overheat the brakes (expecially when towing) Its now viewed as the opposite, as your engine being on 'overrun' is apparently bad for the environment - unburnt fuel etc etc..

Aaah, good to see the greenies keep up with technology - on modern fuel-injected cars engine braking is likely to inject zero fuel, whereas braking and allowing the engine to idle/run on will require fuel to keep it turning.

[Andy]

Aaah, good to see the greenies keep up with technology - on modern fuel-injected cars engine braking is likely to inject zero fuel, whereas braking and allowing the engine to idle/run on will require fuel to keep it turning.

Your making the mistake of expecting logic from the ****witted.

[Retroanaconda]

The slowing down change, this is due to the much more effective brakes we have these days.

They don't teach you to coast to a stop in third, you slow to a stop in whatever gear and de-clutch just before the engine begins to labour.

Saving fuel has nothing to do with it, it's down to more efficient and effective braking systems on modern cars.

[FridgeFreezer]

I'm waiting for them to realise, some time around 2020, that Prius batteries are full of nasty stuff and that it takes more energy to manufacture some solar panels than they will ever generate in their lifetime.

[Adam001]

The engine braking thing is not a emmissions thing, it is to do with the fact they expect you not to be able to work out your gearbox and not be able to get it into gear leaving you in neutral and effectively coasting...even though the alterative by not engine braking leaves you in neutral anyway haha!

But, like simon said, he got points for doing exactly what I would have done under test situations if I did as the examiner pleased. :s

[M&S]

In Simons case he should have waited for the exit to be clear. Sorry, but we have similar set-ups on roundabouts here and EVERYONE does the same. Lights are green so they go, forgetting that it is still a roundabout. Same goes for normal lights actually, just because they are green you should still remain at the line until the exit is clear.

Saying that, I have my PSV test due soon, so will probably learn it all differently again

[mickeyw]

I'm waiting for them to realise, some time around 2020, that Prius batteries are full of nasty stuff and that it takes more energy to manufacture some solar panels than they will ever generate in their lifetime.

My view exactly ^^^. I'm not holding my breath though...

[Adam001]

I must admit, I am quite confused, seems like such a grey area on what is technically right and wrong

[reb78]

The engine braking thing is frustrating. I have much better control of my car if i use the engine and the brakes and no matter how efficient the brakes, using the engine as well still anables me to stop faster. Corners are particulary frustrating with this silly rule, it can leave you in an innappropriate gear to drive out of the corner. If you are braking on the gears, it is likely that you are in the correct gear to drive out of the corner and change once the corner is complete.

As for the lights, it seems odd that with long vehicles, you are encouraged to go through the light if the front axle has passed the line. In a car, this might be ok, but with a trailer, it could result in the trailer being in the junction when the traffic crossing your path is allowed to proceed. Bit rough that you got a fail for that provided your manouvre was safe IMO.

[madmatt]

Just to back Adam up I passed my HGV test last year and the taught method now is on approaching a green traffic light back off the gas check all mirrors and be prepared to stop if needs be, until the point of no return.