northernchris Posted June 13, 2006 Share Posted June 13, 2006 As it says who would or wouldn't wear helmets and harnesses. The pros and cons. Std seat belts hard to get on when on unlevel ground. Harnesses slighty slower to use but can be put on when on side slopes etc. Helmets,dampen noise ,hard to hear co driver BUT with any half decent open face helmet you can fit ear pieces for the radios. If we where running to MSA regs you would need atleast 8" clearance around your head in case of it impacting with inner cage/bodywork and that IS when wearing a helmet. Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tangoman Posted June 13, 2006 Share Posted June 13, 2006 Chris, I would have no problem wearing a helmet already have 4 point harneses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
northernchris Posted June 13, 2006 Author Share Posted June 13, 2006 Chris, I would have no problem wearing a helmet already have 4 point harneses. I think it is going to go that way,i dont see why people dont want to wear them,if they complain about the cost,well in the great scheme of things it is not alot of money compared to the cost of our challange trucks. Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minivin Posted June 13, 2006 Share Posted June 13, 2006 however strapping an extra kilo of weight to the top of your head is going to do no good to your neck and spine particularly in shock load situations, better to wear something like a tank drivers lid like the padded WW2 things that will at least stop you from head-butting the vehicle, yet won't strain your neck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LR90 Posted June 13, 2006 Share Posted June 13, 2006 I see cost as an issue making entry to the sport more difficult but can see the merits in adopting MSA regs. We seem to be seeing more rolls on events now as they get tougher and I'm personally less keen on competing in my 90 which doesn't have a cage whatever the regs might let me get away with. Harnesses are not expensive but difficult to live with on a DD but I wonder how many cages would pass MSA? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TJ101 Posted June 13, 2006 Share Posted June 13, 2006 I think it is going to go that way,i dont see why people dont want to wear them,if they complain about the cost,well in the great scheme of things it is not alot of money compared to the cost of our challange trucks.Chris It will more that likley go that way,, following MSA regs, BUT where does it stop,, if it goes along the lines of stage rally regs, add in the cost of approved helmets (£400), seats,(£400) harness (£220), overalls, (£450) plumbed in fire fighters,(£250) etc, etc Then that will be followed by FIA regs, ie, change the lot every 5 years (cost of aprox £2k+ etc) Am sure none of us want to skimp on our own safety, but in this day and age, its only a matter of time, before we are told, the above has to be done !! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
northernchris Posted June 14, 2006 Author Share Posted June 14, 2006 It will more that likley go that way,, following MSA regs, BUT where does it stop,, if it goes along the lines of stage rally regs, add in the cost of approved helmets (£400), seats,(£400) harness (£220), overalls, (£450) plumbed in fire fighters,(£250) etc, etcThen that will be followed by FIA regs, ie, change the lot every 5 years (cost of aprox £2k+ etc) Am sure none of us want to skimp on our own safety, but in this day and age, its only a matter of time, before we are told, the above has to be done !! Approved helmet £150 upwards, harness £90 upwards, seats £300 pr pr fire system club level £120 As for tank helmet what drugs are you smoking?????????????Sure they use them in WRC,F1 etc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MogLite Posted June 14, 2006 Share Posted June 14, 2006 We are planning to use helmets in MogLite el-cheapo motoX lids are the current favourite The thinking behind this, is a cheap (I assume polycarb) will be light It will protect against bumping your head on the cage in a crash, with a full cage, I think more would be overkill. The ability to wire them for sound is important, also with no windscreen/doors we need some kind of goggles/face-protection from flying stones/mud/ramblers. Sparco harneses are ready to go in Seats are again el-cheapo Vauxhall seats, for comfort and cost. Also race seats provide useless rear visability for challenge style events. The ability to tilt them forward for access to the space behind is important for me too. I've tried to get the rest as safe as I can - albeit on a budget, fireproof bulkheads, electrical kill switches etc. I would like a plumbed in extinguisher - I'm used to driving oil-burners - petrol is scary Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TJ101 Posted June 14, 2006 Share Posted June 14, 2006 Approved helmet £150 upwards, harness £90 upwards, seats £300 pr pr fire system club level £120As for tank helmet what drugs are you smoking?????????????Sure they use them in WRC,F1 etc Chris ?? tank helmet ?? my prices quoted were approximate, for decent gear,, NOT cheap carp stuff, having just refitted one of the hire cars to current FIA spec obviously smoking better quality stuff that you are, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minivin Posted June 14, 2006 Share Posted June 14, 2006 Approved helmet £150 upwards, harness £90 upwards, seats £300 pr pr fire system club level £120As for tank helmet what drugs are you smoking?????????????Sure they use them in WRC,F1 etc Having a friends daughter break her neck because the inertial weight of a helmet in a accident, I have first hand knowledge thank you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diff Posted June 14, 2006 Share Posted June 14, 2006 I would consider wearing a helmet, regardless of what the regs are. Even a lightweight cycling helmet can prevent serious injury. Having had several rollovers in my trials buggys, I am very aware of how it is physically impossible to prevent your head from being thrown about by the motion of the roll. I had a serious roll once, and if I had not been wearing a helmet (open face m/cycle), I may have suffered a serious injury. The force with which my helmet hit the rollcage was enough to stun me momentarily. A lot depends on vehicle design as to what, if anything your head is likely to come into contact with. In a Land Rover, the window/doorframe/post is the most likely providing you are well strapped in and you have a suitable high back seat and headrest. I have had previous rollovers without a helmet where I have been fortunate not to have hit my head so hard. My choice would be full harness and lightweight helmet. The sport may not need to go to MSA regs so soon, if competitors wore helmets and harnesses. The more injuries that occur as a result of roll overs, the more likely the sport will be pushed towards MSA regs. I haven't competed in a winch challenge, but I used to regularly compete in AWDC class 1 modified trials for which there are specific MSA regs regarding vehicle design etc. Regards, Diff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dirtydiesel Posted June 14, 2006 Share Posted June 14, 2006 To be fair the worst case with the msa is that you would have to prep yourself and your car to compsafari spec. Ie: Approved rollcage, min. of 3 point harnesses, helmet to the relavent british standard. At the end of the day it is only going to be classed as a clubmans event, no need for full international event rules is there. IMHO Most (if not all) of the injuries i've seen at off road events wouldn't have happened, if the level of vehicle prep was higher. If we where running to MSA regs you would need atleast 8" clearance around your head in case of it impacting with inner cage/bodywork and that IS when wearing a helmet. Are you sure the above is correct. last time i looked it was 50mm above top of helmet, and 50mm to the outside of your shoulder. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LR90 Posted June 14, 2006 Share Posted June 14, 2006 The MSA approved cages, would these include exo cages or only internal and is a simple hoop and backstays sufficient? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diff Posted June 14, 2006 Share Posted June 14, 2006 The MSA approved cages, would these include exo cages or only internal and is a simple hoop and backstays sufficient? MSA rules adopted by the AWDC for 4x4 crosscountry vehicles are different to those for high speed events. IF MSA rules were to be applied to winch challenges, in my opinion, they are likely to be along the lines of the MSA regs adopted for modified trialling. These regs are sensible and for a roll cage would be for internal or external, two hoops, two straight backstays and a diagonal in the rear hoop or very close to it. Minimum material is blue band steam pipe. Dirtydiesel's dimensions regarding helmet clearance are correct for these MSA regs. Regards, Diff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dirtydiesel Posted June 14, 2006 Share Posted June 14, 2006 The MSA approved cages, would these include exo cages or only internal and is a simple hoop and backstays sufficient? I would like to see a minimum of drawing no. Q36 in the msa blue book. But i bielieve the current min. for awdc speed events is drawing no. Q6a. A simple rear hoop and stays is just not enough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Les Brock Posted June 14, 2006 Share Posted June 14, 2006 I'd like to see helmets and harnesses for the driver, not sure about the biatch though 1, It most cases...well in our case anyway I'm out of the vechicle watching/directing, where there is a possibility of a roll, ready to put my substatial weight on the light side 2, With all the activity required it might get slightly warm to say the least for the biatch With punches becoming more challenging I think something is required on to Scutineering......it's there for a reason and "flak hat" on....if it fails it fails, not a case of get it done for next time but you can compete .....lots of things arn't and still the same next event OK most things, arn't safety related and no way would they pass if it was, but rules is rules ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ltwt1981 Posted June 14, 2006 Share Posted June 14, 2006 In many cases the reason for a fail is not a criticak safety issue, the normal route is, take it away and try to fix it, ask other competitors for help. Comes back after best endeavours still not right, we would then say, 1. Safety criticakl, sorry fail. 2. Not critical, fix it for next time. Chief will then talk to eligibility scrutineer who will see this vehicle next time, if not fixed next time then don't get to play. This works for us in racing, but in off road the eligibility scrutineer may not exist and the club scrutineers change. The way forward is then a log book, maybe not in the currently accepted sense but must be signed at each event by scrutineer, any problems are noted and next time scrutineer sees it and checks. Couldn't be fairer but competitors don't like log books. Will they remember to bring the log book, we had a competitor at Brands Hatch the other week who actually forgot to bring his car with him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Exmoor Beast Posted June 14, 2006 Share Posted June 14, 2006 Its been suggested that this be moved to the Int' forum which seems sensible to me as not everyone uses this section. So if thats alright folks.... Will Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D9OSV Posted June 14, 2006 Share Posted June 14, 2006 Intresting thread Chris..... Have had to wear helmets on several occasions abroad and in the UK whilist competing, and two major things have raised there head as a result... After wearing a helmet for two days competing i actually find that i am NOT in pain from muslce aches etc... I think this is because i am not trying to constantly stop my head hitting the the roof and vehicle side the whole time, thus not stressing my neck and shoulder muslces as frequently.... So for this it is a plus point The other thing that raised it's head is that, give someone a helmet, gloves and a car and all of a sudden they think there Nigel Mansell !!!! Seen it plenty....... This sport is changing, I have been doing this along time and it is getting very competitve..... Bad thing???? Who knows?? But i think you'll have difficulty getting some to wear helmets in the UK, They will feel they are having to suffer to others inability to judge terrian.........Or .........Drive Some events state that you must wear a helmet etc, but not what type or whether or not it's approved. I think this is a sensible approach as any helmet is better than no helmet, but i also understand that this in itself will cause problems in this litagation strewn land Answer ? Not sure, but Helmets defiantly get my thumbs up As for the recent roll overs etc.... Very sad and i hope all our well, but we have brought it upon ourselves by having one day competitive events..........At two days events most are not so heavy footed because the vehicle MUST last two whole days..........Nuff said The poor competitors that unfortautely rolled must also take some blame for getting it and their judgement wrong, I strongly hope this acts as as reallity check for everyone I also strongly believe that a little of what started the challenge scene has been lost ie: The Challenge, Team spirit and the will to help others. Anyway.....Where was i ????? Helmets, Yeh there great Jim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D9OSV Posted June 14, 2006 Share Posted June 14, 2006 One thing i forgot to add is that as a driver YOU do not HAVE to do ANYTHING you feel is dangerous...... Or is that the problem? People are scared to say NO!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jules Posted June 14, 2006 Share Posted June 14, 2006 I race so have no issue with wearing a helmet Having said that I would not wear me £350 Peltor helmet for challenging I would go for a cheaper one but would fit a radio intercom or Blue tooth to it. I have in the past got MSA approved helmets for as little a £50 when I was first racing.... The cage is no issue either as my cages are always built to MAS/ARC guide lines anyway for my own safety.... Extinguishers £25 for a AFFF so that's no hard ship as I carry them in the challenge truck anyway.... Plumed in is not a requirement in comp safari I do have them as a last resort in the racers but not the challenge truck and I have no planes to fit them. Harnesses all my competitive trucks have them again I prefer them over normal ones as you never know when you could get it all wrong.. I can't see the FIA getting too involved at this stage and its not racing... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GBMUD Posted June 14, 2006 Share Posted June 14, 2006 What about reducing the number of roll-overs rather than just making it safer? Take away all of a competitors points if he rolls his truck - which will give him some incentive to be careful. Or take a £500 deposit and keep if he rolls. Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tombraider110 Posted June 14, 2006 Share Posted June 14, 2006 Both my kids wear the bike hats when they are off road on play days and that is there choice to. my 6 year old can fall asleep in the back of the 110 when her dad is have great fun. So i wont complane if i have to as well Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jules Posted June 14, 2006 Share Posted June 14, 2006 What about reducing the number of roll-overs rather than just making it safer? Take away all of a competitors points if he rolls his truck - which will give him some incentive to be careful. Or take a £500 deposit and keep if he rolls. Chris We don't roll the trucks deliberately Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
northernchris Posted June 14, 2006 Author Share Posted June 14, 2006 Chris ?? tank helmet ?? my prices quoted were approximate, for decent gear,, NOT cheap carp stuff, having just refitted one of the hire cars to current FIA spec obviously smoking better quality stuff that you are, HOW CAN IT BE CHEAP carp STUFF IF IT IS APPROVED BY THE MSA????????????????? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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