Ed Poore Posted April 17, 2011 Share Posted April 17, 2011 Hello all, I have a 300Tdi 110 CSW that is currently on ~90k and went for a service recently. There were no strange noises from the turbo prior to the service (having just covered 1000 miles the week before) and as usual was pulling like a train up big hills. The only thing of note was a vibration which appeared quickly and was traced down to a worn / broken UJ (subsequently fixed in the service). When I picked it up from the service the turbo whine was a little louder than normal but nothing excessive. After ~100 miles I was on the way to a shoot and there was a clunk which I thought was a bolt or something from the road (still could have been). A mile or two down the road there was a "twang" followed by a loss in power on the way up a short but sharp hill. I limped to the shoot which was just down the road and before returning home checked through the pipework - there was no oil in the pipes and none looked de-laminated, thinking it might be the wastegate stuck shut (and not knowing where it was at the time) I drove home slowly on back roads at more or less a tick-over trying not to spin up the turbo too much. When I got back home I had a more thorough look and with a mirror subsequently found the damage in the attached picture. Now the question is - that ring of metal that looks like it caused all the damage - is that a foreign object or part of the turbo itself? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
western Posted April 17, 2011 Share Posted April 17, 2011 strip/rebuild of a 200tdi Discovery turbo here http://forums.lr4x4.com/index.php?showtopic=2049 the bent ring in your photo looks like a alloy crush washer, can't see anything like it in the link above. it's wrecked the compressor & only fix will be a replacement turbo. best speak to the garage who worked on it last. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pat_pending Posted April 17, 2011 Share Posted April 17, 2011 I don't recognise the object either, it can't be part of the turbo because it's come through the intake pipe and hit the outside of the blades. It's too big to have gone through the intercooler so how did it get there. What exactly did the garage do at the service, did they have any of the pipes off? perhaps while doing something else and it fell in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BogMonster Posted April 17, 2011 Share Posted April 17, 2011 (edited) I haven't got a turbo handy but it doesn't look like anything I remember seeing. I assume that's the intake side of the turbo (i.e. pipe that goes to the air filter)? In which case it could have been something inside the new air filter if that was changed? You might have been unlucky, it may have been there for years and got dislodged if somebody banged one of the pipes during the service, we had a 300 a few years ago that had a similar case after 1000 miles or so from new, never did find out what went through it (it had gone/been mulched) but the impeller looked similar - can only guess something was left in the intake pipework during assembly. Seems quite unlikely it would have been in there for 90k though. I'd certainly talk to the garage who serviced it as something dropped inside a replacement air filter and then sucked through the intake plumbing is probably the most plausible explanation. Edited to add in light of the post above, the turbo is before the intercooler so if it is the intake side of the turbo it will not have gone through the intercooler. Edited April 17, 2011 by BogMonster Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Poore Posted April 17, 2011 Author Share Posted April 17, 2011 I should have mentioned but yes it was on the intake side. The service involved changing the air filter so may well have dropped something in. I'd be surprised if it was there before because with the greenlaning etc it's had plenty of knocks and I've covered 20k in the last 9 months so the timing is too close to be a coincidence in my opinion. Thanks for confirming what I thought was that it is FOD so to speak. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmgemini Posted April 17, 2011 Share Posted April 17, 2011 That looks like what is left of one of the metal ends off an air filter element. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Poore Posted April 17, 2011 Author Share Posted April 17, 2011 That looks like what is left of one of the metal ends off an air filter element. Any chance you could provide a photo of that? If that's the case then it's almost certainly the garages fault. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmgemini Posted April 17, 2011 Share Posted April 17, 2011 Sorry Ed I use a K&N......Ask in the stores to look at an air filter element. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Poore Posted April 17, 2011 Author Share Posted April 17, 2011 Thanks anyway. I might be able to whip off the filter from a 300Tdi Disco we have lying around and have a looksie. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BogMonster Posted April 17, 2011 Share Posted April 17, 2011 300Tdi Discovery has a different flat filter. I can't picture the bit that mmgemini is talking about but you'd need to check the same sort of filter - ESR2623 should be what you have in there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
western Posted April 17, 2011 Share Posted April 17, 2011 I was thinking the metal ring stuck in your turbo might be the bit in the orange circle in this photo, but, the filter fixing inside the air cleaner case would stop it being sucked into the turbo compressor vanes if it was still a intact circular bit. I reckon someone has dropped a alloy or steel washer in the trunking by accident & not realised where it went. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Poore Posted April 17, 2011 Author Share Posted April 17, 2011 I was thinking the metal ring stuck in your turbo might be the bit in the orange circle in this photo, but, the filter fixing inside the air cleaner case would stop it being sucked into the turbo compressor vanes if it was still a intact circular bit. I reckon someone has dropped a alloy or steel washer in the trunking by accident & not realised where it went. Well the filter looks to be in one piece but since I don't know what these ones look like (I've rebuilt a Series III but since the 110 had a full service history I've been keeping it that way so haven't tinkered as much as usual). So it looks like something might have been dropped in by the garage, that's going to be a fun conversation with them. I doubt it was something lodged there before because as I mentioned I've covered a stupid amount of miles in it since I bought it (20k since last May) and there was some not particularly gentle off roading and green-laning over the winter. The week before the service I was staying on Bisley camp in Surrey for a club's Easter training week and spent the time towing a trailer around the tracks there and again it was taking some serious knocks from potholes etc so that should have dislodged anything. Then the 300 miles driven on the way home to Wales before taking it for a service so given that I'm fairly certain anything that might have been lodged there since I bought it would have worked its way loose before yesterday. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
western Posted April 17, 2011 Share Posted April 17, 2011 your filter is intact wondering if there was a steel washer on the end of the filter support inside the casing put there by a previous owner [or have you had the 110 from new ? ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Les Henson Posted April 17, 2011 Share Posted April 17, 2011 The air cleaner element is held inside the housing by a plastic wing-nut. When you buy a new filter - it comes with a new rubber sealing washer which you replace with the one on the wing nut. If I remember correctly - the wing nut has a flat washer on it, then the new rubber seal to prevent distortion. Once the filter is secured inside, then the filter housing cover goes on and is once again secured by a wing nut and rubber seal. The washer that's in your turbo looks like the steel washer that should be between the rubber seal and plastic wing nut inside the filter housing. If the washer is accidentally dropped in the filter, then I would imagine it would then have unrestricted access to the turbo. If that's the case, then an easy way to tell is to remove the air filter element and see if the steel washer is there. If not - the garage is 100% responsible for the damage to your turbo. Les. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Poore Posted April 17, 2011 Author Share Posted April 17, 2011 your filter is intact wondering if there was a steel washer on the end of the filter support inside the casing put there by a previous owner [or have you had the 110 from new ? ] No clue. It's had "two" previous owners. The guy who bought it from new and then the garage that sold it on his behalf. I bought it last May with 70k on the clock and it's just gone past 90k. In terms of what I've done it's had one comprehensive (the full works) service plus a thorough going over by Challenger 4x4 in Surrey (highly recommend them) at about 78k, I checked the oils etc over the winter whilst I was replacing the P-gasket and then had this problematic service at about 90k. Unfortunately wasn't with Challenger since I am currently the other end of the country... Microcat doesn't shed any light on it so it's an unknown for the moment where it came from I think. Will be speaking to the garage tomorrow and see what they're going to do about it. Hopefully can get it sorted quickly without spending anything substantial. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Poore Posted April 17, 2011 Author Share Posted April 17, 2011 The air cleaner element is held inside the housing by a plastic wing-nut. When you buy a new filter - it comes with a new rubber sealing washer which you replace with the one on the wing nut. If I remember correctly - the wing nut has a flat washer on it, then the new rubber seal to prevent distortion. Once the filter is secured inside, then the filter housing cover goes on and is once again secured by a wing nut and rubber seal. The washer that's in your turbo looks like the steel washer that should be between the rubber seal and plastic wing nut inside the filter housing. If the washer is accidentally dropped in the filter, then I would imagine it would then have unrestricted access to the turbo. If that's the case, then an easy way to tell is to remove the air filter element and see if the steel washer is there. If not - the garage is 100% responsible for the damage to your turbo. If I understand you correctly then I think that the washer is still there. I took a series of piccies in anticipation of this EDIT If that is the washer you mean then the one that's in the turbo is considerably different (unless it's got sufficiently destroyed) because it's a larger diameter and the "width" of the thing looks to be a lot narrower (i.e. inner and outer diameters are similar compared to the overall diameter). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cackshifter Posted April 17, 2011 Share Posted April 17, 2011 Could it have been an ali sump plug washer I wonder? Might have been one with the filters and nobody realised? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
western Posted April 17, 2011 Share Posted April 17, 2011 is the remains of the wrecked washer steel or ally ? a ally washer would still trash the turbo vanes but possibly less than a harder steel washer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobed90 Posted April 17, 2011 Share Posted April 17, 2011 Could it have been an ali sump plug washer I wonder? Might have been one with the filters and nobody realised? Think you could be right that its a sump plug washer, it certainly looks the right size. Incidently I recently purchased a service kit and the sump washer was just loose in the box, perhaps if your garage had the same, it could easily of ended up in the air filter. I hope you get it sorted, though I believe it will be very difficult to get the garage to take responsibility. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Poore Posted April 17, 2011 Author Share Posted April 17, 2011 I haven't taken it out yet so I'm not sure whether it's ally or steel, basically because I was wondering whether it would be worth getting someone independent to look at the damage before taking bits out. I'll be speaking to the garage tomorrow to see what their response is and if it's not the desired result then will have to take it up a notch - not something I want to do, got far too much on at the moment without having the hassle of sorting out who's going to pay. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snagger Posted April 18, 2011 Share Posted April 18, 2011 I was thinking along the same lines - either the washer from the air filter, under the wing nut (filter should have been inspected in a service, so highly plausible) or an aluminium washer for sealing a fuel or oil pipe, possibly due to replacing a weeping banjo union washer on the top of the turbo's core. My money is on the filter, as the pipework to the tubo would have been removed along with that washer for filter inspection. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Poore Posted April 18, 2011 Author Share Posted April 18, 2011 Well I spoke with the garage and they were shocked but trying to wheedle their way out of it (my impression anyway). Once I got back I had a phone call of them and they said that they'd checked the filters that they'd installed and there was a loose washer inside them instead of being taped to the top as usual. Rough estimate of size put it to about the same as the attached photo so things are more hopeful. I'll take the 110 up to them after some lunch and see what they say from there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
disco_al Posted April 18, 2011 Share Posted April 18, 2011 looks like a sump washer to me... if it was a filter kit - as supplied by bearmach - then they come with two washers, one copper and one alloy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Poore Posted April 18, 2011 Author Share Posted April 18, 2011 Well it was a Britpart filter and the latest batch they have comes with a washer loose in the bag. Got it out and took it to the garage, they're now fitting a new turbo for me. Well that's a relief! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gromit Posted April 18, 2011 Share Posted April 18, 2011 Good result. I wonder how much washer and/or turbo shrapnel was injested by the engine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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