reb78 Posted September 19, 2011 Share Posted September 19, 2011 I was just after some opinions on the Puma from those that have them. Earlier this year, we bought a 2003 TD4 Freelander and as much as i wanted to like it, i dont! I have persuaded SWMBO, that a brand new Puma 90 CSW might be worth a look - they are smarter than my tatty old 110 after all! The other thing (that i thought i'd never say), is a vehicle with a warranty will take away some of the worry about expensive bills (for a while). I also dont want to spend every weekend under a car - which is what has happened lately (and its not under my 110) So, what are your opinions on the Puma - is it a good vehicle? Reliable? Quieter/easier to drive than a tdi/TD5? Do they have any big warranty issues that need looking out for? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BogMonster Posted September 19, 2011 Share Posted September 19, 2011 I quite like them. The legroom in the front is an issue for people with long legs, but you'll find out if that is a problem on a 5 min test drive. The gearchange is spoiled by backlash in the transmission so the nice slick gearbox isn't great when everything is hot after a long run, but that's a function of the rest of the transmission not of the new bits. Very good to drive on the road and by all accounts pretty good off it (not really tried one) as long as serious wading isn't what you want to do. The effortless torque feels like it will let you go up just about anything in just about any gear. I still have my 300Tdi and I plan to keep it, but we'd been giving some thought to selling SWMBO's one and my Discovery and replacing it with a Puma. No real show stoppers on reliability - the clutch is not really up to the torque IMHO and various bits go wrong in the fuel injection system but on the whole they are not bad at all - assuming you are expecting the usual "Monday morning hungover apprentice" bodywork assembly quality that comes with any Defender. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maverik Posted September 19, 2011 Share Posted September 19, 2011 I've just completed a basic onreoad/offroad (an ex LR experience track up here) assesment type thing, to allow me to drive our MRT wagons. I did it in a 2011, TDCI 110. I'm used to driving a 86 LR90 (200tdi). I was pleasantly suprised with the 110's offroad performance, like previously said the engine is extremly torquey. The anti stall function combined with the simple traction control allowes you to pretty much go up anything with you not needing to interfere too much you just have to point the wheels in the right direction and hold it to a line. Onroad I can't say I had any problems too, I'm 6ft quite long legged, and didn't have any trouble with leg room (seat goes back quite far without bulkhead). The gear box took a little getting used to as the ranges are quite different to anything else I've driven, 6th gear is a nice to have at motorway speeds. I was'nt really impreesed by the build quality though, being a defender the panels are spot welded in verious places and copareing some of the panels to my 86 truck, you can tell the Alu is a lot thinner and you wont be able to see a flat panel over the whole vehicle - I thought the front wing had been dinged, but turned out to be just marks from the spot welds. All in all, if I had the spare monies, I'd certainly consider buying one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happyoldgit Posted September 19, 2011 Share Posted September 19, 2011 I have one, a 110 XS Utility and like the '07 Puma I had from new before, find it much more pleasant to drive than the TD5's, 300Tdi's etc I've had in the past. The anti stall feature is useful and the 6 speed box makes the vehicle more refined and long legged on a decent run. I have a bad back and leg and have no issues with seating position, which after all is pretty much the same as previous models. I find the dash layout good, ventilation, heating and aircon excellent - far superior to anything that went before. The heated seats are good as is the heated windscreen screen. Earlier ones had issues with the clutch but by rights these should all have been sorted by warranty now. The finish on things like mudflap brackets, headlamp rims, side and rear steps on later models can be poor but again these can all be addressed under warranty - but returning the vehicle to a main stealer to have niggly bits like this can be tiresome. If you buy new with the intention of keeping it a few years I'd recommend getting some kind of wax protection on / in the chassis, bulkhead etc asap as Land Rover gave up doing this with the introduction of the Puma in '07. The bonnet, back and side doors are now made out of steel but be warned Puma bonnets are just as easy to remove as earlier models and are a target for the light fingered brigade. Four years on and there is now a lot of aftermarket stuff available for Puma's including a barrel load of bling bolt ons. Engine performance via ECU remapping is also well catered for. Be mindful that new vehicles are now likely to come with the 2.2 engine complete with DPF filter instead of the 2.4. I'll probably add to this as I think of more stuff.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GBMUD Posted September 19, 2011 Share Posted September 19, 2011 I assume that you/SWMBO bought a Freelander rather than a Defender in the first place for some reason. Unless that reason has changed, irrespective of maintainence/reliability issues, then I cannot see that a Defender (of which I own 2) is really a comparable car to a Freelander. I owned a Freelander some years ago and was also disappointed, I now own a Freelander2 and it is quite a different car to the F1, other than the badge you would never believe that they had the same name! Defenders have got better and better over the years in terms of interior luxury but ride and handling have not. They are superb at what they do, but IMHO being a car is not it. The F2 on the other hand, while compromised off-road, is great for light off-roading (grass, gravel, etc.) while being like a quality estate car on road. Both on and off road the Freelander gives a much better ride (due to different suspension) and better MPG (due to being lighter and more streamlined). In the past, I have fallen into the trap of buying the car I would like rather than the car I need just because I can see what looks like a good excuse. I may have done so again, who knows, but I urge you to think carefully about what the car will actually get used for. I love my Defenders, but for what it does for me (light towing including on muddy tracks where my van struggles and lots of commuting and my SWMBO's business transport needs) I love my F2 too. I do not want to change your mind, just give you reasons to think. Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reb78 Posted September 19, 2011 Author Share Posted September 19, 2011 Thanks all for the responses so far. I am reading with interest and will discuss it with SWMBO in detail! Its a lot of money to spend, so positive/negative and thought provoking responses alike are welcome! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happyoldgit Posted September 19, 2011 Share Posted September 19, 2011 Be mindful that internal loadspace is somewhat limited in a 90, the forward facing rear seats in a Puma take up a fair bit of space even when stowed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reb78 Posted September 19, 2011 Author Share Posted September 19, 2011 Be mindful that internal loadspace is somewhat limited in a 90, the forward facing rear seats in a Puma take up a fair bit of space even when stowed. We both commented on that when looking at them yesterday. Its normally just two of us and two dogs (ones a Jack Russell, so more like 1.25 dogs ), so that shouldnt be a problem. Part of the reason for looking at 90s rather than 110s is that the other half doesnt want something as big as my 110. Is it easy to remove those rear seats completely? I find the dash layout good, ventilation, heating and aircon excellent - far superior to anything that went before. The heated seats are good as is the heated windscreen screen. This is why i feel its a fair comparison to make between the Puma and the freelander1 - i wouldnt say that a new Puma is less smart or less equipped than an F1. Our current freelander is no better specced than that (its the HSE and the sat nav is rubbish so i wont include that!) If you buy new with the intention of keeping it a few years I'd recommend getting some kind of wax protection on / in the chassis, bulkhead etc asap as Land Rover gave up doing this with the introduction of the Puma in '07. Good point - something i would definately do to a new one now! Be mindful that new vehicles are now likely to come with the 2.2 engine complete with DPF filter instead of the 2.4. I hadnt realised this. So the brand new Pumas have a 2.2? When did this occur? Is the particulate filter an expensive item that requires servicing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reb78 Posted September 19, 2011 Author Share Posted September 19, 2011 Onroad I can't say I had any problems too, I'm 6ft quite long legged, and didn't have any trouble with leg room (seat goes back quite far without bulkhead). The gear box took a little getting used to as the ranges are quite different to anything else I've driven, 6th gear is a nice to have at motorway speeds. Conversley, what are they like for short people? I'm 6ft, but SWMBO is 5'1 1/2 (i'm told the 1/2 is important!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reb78 Posted September 19, 2011 Author Share Posted September 19, 2011 assuming you are expecting the usual "Monday morning hungover apprentice" bodywork assembly quality that comes with any Defender. I would expect nothing else! Its part of the character isnt it?! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CwazyWabbit Posted September 19, 2011 Share Posted September 19, 2011 I hadnt realised this. So the brand new Pumas have a 2.2? When did this occur? Is the particulate filter an expensive item that requires servicing? The 2.2 is supposed to have the same power and torque as the 2.4 .... it's new for the 2012 Defender IIRC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happyoldgit Posted September 19, 2011 Share Posted September 19, 2011 The back seats do unbolt pretty easily. My OH is 5' 4" ish [may be a bit less] and has always managed Defenders ok. 2.2 is supposed to have same power etc as 2.4 but comes with a DPF. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 19, 2011 Share Posted September 19, 2011 I second Chris, I am a Defender/Series man however Mrs S was not so keen so she had a couple of Freelander 1's after we got rid of the last one we said never again however when I was forced into a company car, I ended up with a Freelander 2.... What a different car it is, I really wanted to hate it, but the first week I got it the snow came down and it proved it's self a very accomplished drive. I have now done 17,000 miles in it, with non of the usual LR issues and I have got to say I would spend my own money one one. We looked at the new 90 for Mrs S a while ago but she never seemed that keen, and when I had to take the company car she ended up in the 110 which didn't make sense for the 5 miles she does a day and to be honest she wasn't keen on driving it, so has now ended up in a VW Polo.... If she really wants a LR I would say you can't go far wrong with the FL2 as a daily drive its good on the juice also which helps. Jason. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom Posted September 19, 2011 Share Posted September 19, 2011 Had numerous 90's, Inc 200's,300's and td5s. I brought a brand new santorini black xs 90 last year, dash defiantly a improvement, six speed was nice but I didn't think the puma lump was fantastic, I guess spoilt with tuned td5's. The car had terrible paint work, 'dry' flat areas and lots of orange peel - so bad you could feel it if you ran your hand over the panels. The worst bit was the rust on the rear o/s panel ( small angled piece just below the capping ) - on a brand new car!!!!!!! main dealer offered to get the paint work sorted, but I didn't spend 30k on a motor to then have it repainted, it went back. At the time I was running a 300, so I kept that ( still got her ) and wandered over to a ford main dealer and came out with a focus rs ( paint amazing - maybe ford could give land rover a few tips!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cackshifter Posted September 20, 2011 Share Posted September 20, 2011 When the Puma came out, my wife and I went to look at them. We had a Mondeo and were very impressed with the engine in that, and thought its character (the anti stall etc) would really suit the Defender. First thing that happened while looking at a 90 in the showroom was a cut on the hand from sharp flash on a spotweld round the filler cap. The flash hadn't been painted either, so if looking at them make sure you've had an anti-tetanus. The salesman shrugged and tried to sell us a Disco. Land Rover should be ashamed of the quality; the basic design may be old fashioned but they could make it a lot better by simply making it to decent standards and putting proper paint on. As regards the Puma engine I'd avoid the DPF version if possible (not sure how it'll like being submerged while burning itself out for instance), and be aware that at about 100k it'll probably need a set of injectors at around £500. I just hope production moves somewhere else, some of these basic things might improve. Nigel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSG Posted September 21, 2011 Share Posted September 21, 2011 I've had a number of Defenders from 300tdi, TD5s and now I'm on my second Puma. I love it - big improvement over the earlier models with a good heater and air con. The last of the 2.4 engines are leaving the showrooms now so any new order will be the 2.2. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BogMonster Posted September 22, 2011 Share Posted September 22, 2011 Anybody got/driven a 2.2L yet? I'm no longer in the job I used to do but I think 2012 model year production was supposed to start at the beginning of September... should be hitting the showrooms by about now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reb78 Posted September 22, 2011 Author Share Posted September 22, 2011 Anybody got/driven a 2.2L yet? I'm no longer in the job I used to do but I think 2012 model year production was supposed to start at the beginning of September... should be hitting the showrooms by about now. I went in to talk to the dealer yesterday - they seemed unaware of the change from 2.4 to 2.2 (i suspect you guys on here are probably more in the know than the dealer!). I'll book a test drive for the weekend, but i had a good look around one yesterday - its very nice inside (this was an XS model) - i couldnt beleive how comfy the seats were either! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BogMonster Posted September 23, 2011 Share Posted September 23, 2011 Sometimes with a new model they back up a bit of stock before the official launch in markets that do it properly so maybe the official launch hasn't happened yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reb78 Posted September 23, 2011 Author Share Posted September 23, 2011 Sorted out a test drive for tomorrow morning. Will report back after. They said they had a couple in stock at my local dealer and that these were definately the 2.4 engines. I'm not too worried about engine size, although i've always been under the impression that larger engines will work less hard than a smaller engine chucking out the same power and will thus last longer. Think that may have been true in the past, but perhaps not with todays technology. The thing that worries me more about the newer vehicles is the mention of the DPF - dont really fancy one as they are expensive when they need replacing (looking at how much it costs to fit one to comply with the LEZ). Final question for tonight though - i notice that traction control/ABS is an option on these vehicles. It costs nearly £800. Is it worth it, or just an expensive thing to go wrong in the future?? I've driven plenty of vehicles without TC/ABS and have managed without it for a long time! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BogMonster Posted September 25, 2011 Share Posted September 25, 2011 Final question for tonight though - i notice that traction control/ABS is an option on these vehicles. It costs nearly £800. Is it worth it, or just an expensive thing to go wrong in the future?? I've driven plenty of vehicles without TC/ABS and have managed without it for a long time! From what little experience I have of it, it works quite well on a Defender with the centre diff locked, on a D2 with no CDL it is hopeless. I wouldn't bother as the ABS is not very good and it is a system that seems to break a lot. If you need traction, save the money and put it towards a set of LSDs or airlockers, and if you drive a Defender you ought to be able to judge stopping distances well enough not to need ABS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reb78 Posted October 7, 2011 Author Share Posted October 7, 2011 Thought i'd update this. We went for the test drive. It drove very well and the extra gear means that you have a very short 1st gear, but i guess thats good for towing. I was a bit dissapointed with the noise - i didnt find it much quieter than my 200tdi. I had thought that with newer engines and technology, it would be a bit quieter than it was. It was also quite suprising how choppy the 90 ride was compared to the 110. Having shared this thread with SWMBO she has similar thoughts to GB MUD and a couple of others about the agricultural feel of the defender compared to the freelander. As a few others have said, I'm not so sure it would be the best for long distance cruises etc. The back of the 90 was suprisingly small with the rear seats fitted and those rear seats can only be described as occasional seats! I spoke to the dealer about finance, but it looks like they would expect us to take a massive loss on the freelander as a trade in. The dealer we were at also seemed intent on trying to flog us a tricked up 90 XS that they had in stock and couldnt really understand why i didnt want to pay the extra for TC and ABS that i didnt really want! The leather steering wheel is much nicer than the plastic version though. Overall, the interior improvements are great compared to the earlier models. But, if TD5 models had decent heaters and aircon units, i would happily consider a low mileage second hand one of them. At the minute, i think we will leave the new defender idea as it just works out too much money (we are also looking at a house at the moment and that has taken the top spot). (i have seen a nice 2006 Jeep Grand Cherokee for sale, which i think i would much prefer to the freelander, but i guess this isnt the place to ask for advice on them ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CwazyWabbit Posted October 7, 2011 Share Posted October 7, 2011 (edited) ..... (i have seen a nice 2006 Jeep Grand Cherokee for sale, which i think i would much prefer to the freelander, but i guess this isnt the place to ask for advice on them ) I see burning crosses and hoards of angry villagers heading your way ...... burn the heretic... burn him EDIT: ... forgot the Edited October 7, 2011 by CwazyWabbit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mo Murphy Posted October 7, 2011 Share Posted October 7, 2011 Pitchfork to hand Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reb78 Posted October 7, 2011 Author Share Posted October 7, 2011 I'm definately keeping the 110!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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