External bolt on roll cages

[Gremlin]

Guys, I need an honest opinion from club scruteeners or technical club staff on these kit form bolt on external cages made by a certain company.

My concerns are they safe enough for competition type events?? trials, winch challeges and so on, not comp safaries, are they allowed in your own clubs competitive events, arc, awdc?? They look more for show then saving ones neck.

I am asking as none i have seen in our local club scene have diagonal bracing in the main hoop. None have the front hoop tied to the chassis, but to the bulkhead at the wing mounting bolts. It is hard to belive they will stand up to a couple of rolls with a fully equipped vehicle and sustain no damage.

Let hear what everybody has to say...............

Thanks Grem

[filthy boy]

They protect the bodywork

And offer a bit of protection to occupants

FB

[Hybrid_From_Hell]

Hiya Grem,

OK,

The 4 key things with ANY Cage is

1. The Size / Quality of the tube.

2. The way the cages are fitted / fixed to the chassis mounts etc

3. The structural integrity of the entire unit

4. Welding Quality

If the cage is the one I am thinking of, then IMHO it fails on 1st 3.

External only cages have no "Cross Brace", and for most competitive events where a cage is mandatory they would fail .

This is the bar that goes from the roll loop behind the driver passenger from top drivers head to bottom passenger side.

Additionally the extrnal bought cages are (again IMHO) using too smaller and to thinner a tube.

The fixings are also suspect, and I have one shear its bolted mountings in a roll, again some do not have full hoops, they have a hoop, which then bolts to the wings with some angle on the other side and nuts and bolts - IMHO just not really up to the job.

When you consider how much these are, its a bit like buying an old escort and having Cosworth badges stuck all over it - it does a job, but not anywhere as good as the "proper" kit.

Having siad all of the above it does offer SOME safety and protexction (providing the cage doesn't undo and a lump of tube spear you ), I for one don't like the lack of a cross brace or the quality of the tube / fittings, for the money, or a bit more you could have a proper piece of kit...

No doubt some will argue re all the above, You could also do worse than PM Northern Chris here ?

Nige

[LR90]

They protect the bodywork

And offer a bit of protection to occupants

FB

My sentiments exactly. Horses for courses and while we can clearly see all cages are not equal we do need to understand each has their own application. I think we need to consider first what are the demands being placed on the cage by the particular event before judging the suitability of any particular cage.

[Les Brock]

Well, here my prospective

with fitting the king cab, I want some body protection, so I'm fitting an SD external cage......

But

I'm leaving the internal hoop from my ARC spec cage with Diagonal(6mm on to chassis), tying the SD cage through the roof on to the main hoop this to stop any compression.

as well as taking both the over roof hoops(moved closer together to fit the cab)bolted through the body with stays welded onto the main hoop and welding triangular plates below the stays to stop any shear again due to compression

Taking rear stays back over the rear of the tub to my RSJ rear cross member (Nige would be proud) and fitting the front hoop to the 6mm re-enforced front outrigger

Tree sliders welded between the hoop at the rear of the cab to where it drops over the body and another link between the rear stays over the top of the tailgate

I'm sure people will tell me if this is ok ?????

would I trust it on its own......prob not

[bishbosh]

Without triangulation in both vertical planes a cage is not a "roll" cage. There is no way the bending capacity of the tubes will offer anything more than a nominal increase in roll over protection. The tubes need to work in tension and compression. To do this you have to have triangles not rectangles.

[Astro_Al]

Without triangulation in both vertical planes a cage is not a "roll" cage. There is no way the bending capacity of the tubes will offer anything more than a nominal increase in roll over protection. The tubes need to work in tension and compression. To do this you have to have triangles not rectangles.

What he said.

Les - it's hard to visualise exactly from your description, but basically you are tying the (fairly crappy, by Nige's 4-point system) external cage to your decent crossbraced welded internal main hoop and also to decent (?) rear stays?

I'm not clear if the rear stays are welded to the chassis - if they are, then you'll end up with something which could be 'adequate' depending on the details, if not, well... it's not enough IMHO.

But at the end of the day - what are you going to throw at it?

Al.

[BogMonster]

My sentiments exactly. Horses for courses and while we can clearly see all cages are not equal we do need to understand each has their own application. I think we need to consider first what are the demands being placed on the cage by the particular event before judging the suitability of any particular cage.

A certain organisation here who has quite a lot of green Land Rovers recently fitted external cages from a certain supplier to vehicles used on mountain tops.

Putting it into context if you fall off the top of Mount Alice somewhere by the radar site, the slope on that end is about 40 degrees (some bits rather more than that I think), and somewhere over 1000 feet to the bottom.... with nothing much to stop you rolling. Under those conditions I think said cage would resemble the frame of an inexpensive polythene greenhouse after being run over by a D8 bulldozer

Perhaps the theory was "every little helps" - but I think I'd bale out and let it go

[ltwt1981]

Diagonal cross brace on main hoop is MSA mandatory.

Cage needs to be foxed, welded or bolted as Blue Book to chassis/outrigger.

As said before triangulation is the key, I like to see a brace across the roof, it helps with strength.

Rear stays triangulate the other way, and whatever you fix to you must plate the other side to stop it punching through.

Read the Blue Book or ARC book, you'll see how strong it needs to be.

We have a purge on rally/race cars at present because a couple have deformed or punched through the floor and it needs looking at.

MSA scrutineer

[Lara]

Well what a good thread!

Not read any bull from anyone, only very sensible comments and good advice, impressive!

Going to mess that up now

Remember that when making a cage on a vehicle like a landrover you are going to be putting a lot of weight very high up on your vehicle, if you make it to really good specs and designs that protects in the most severe situation then it is going to be heavy! And weight up there is the last place you need it with soft suspension and no anti-roll bars.

That is why a lot of people go for lighter tube etc that will help a little in a roll but mainly will protect against trees etc when heavy off roading! That said, a cross brace will help in all and every situation.

Remember the old saying, "the only Landrover that needs a cage is one that has one"

Lara.

[BogMonster]

I know the effect my roof rack has on handling and side slope stability so can definitely endorse that! The door handles would touch on roundabouts, except that we don't have any roundabouts in this country so it is ok

[Gremlin]

A certain organisation here who has quite a lot of green Land Rovers recently fitted external cages from a certain supplier to vehicles used on mountain tops.

Putting it into context if you fall off the top of Mount Alice somewhere by the radar site, the slope on that end is about 40 degrees (some bits rather more than that I think), and somewhere over 1000 feet to the bottom.... with nothing much to stop you rolling. Under those conditions I think said cage would resemble the frame of an inexpensive polythene greenhouse after being run over by a D8 bulldozer

Perhaps the theory was "every little helps" - but I think I'd bale out and let it go

Thanks for the replies guys...............

My thoughts exactly, I have been argueing this matter with someclub members that an SD bolt on cage with no diagonals is useless and that the front hoop mounting leaves much to be desired due to the tincan material of the bulkhead. One roll and the thing will bend, you might get out alive but the vehicle might be a total right off, a second roll and you might be lucky to get out alive, a third and i bet you're dead!

For comp use, idealy a second internal main hoop with rear stays and diagonal bracing tied to the external cage might improve things a bit, the front hoop IMO still remains questionable if it would take the strain.

As others have said, if you want poser value or maybe the landrover body shell gives you the creeps as its a bolt on aluminum affair for your own safty, then they are just fine. For all the rest build a decent cage!

Grem

[will_warne]

Gremlin, I had one of these cages for several years and I'd agree with you on a lot of the points. This sort of cage is unsuitable for any event that requires a cage where a big roll is likely at some point (ie a speed event). However, I found it offered excellant body protection and would offer reasonable protection (for the occupants) in a roll. True, the front chassis mounts aren't great but, on mine at any rate, they were mouinted to the chassis. The central hoop was pretty good only being let down by the lack of a cross brace.

As far as how the cage would stand up to a roll, I think you're right. My thoughts about my cage was it'd probably help save your life but it wouldn't neccesserary save the vehicle. However, if I had rolled the vehicle would've been inspected top to bottom, including the cage and any damage would've been repaired. The plus point of the SD cage is that it was totally bolt together making it easy to replace sections. IMHO, for a lot of club level challenging or trialing where rolls are likely to be smaller, low speed ones, this sort of cage is probably OK. However, the more I did with my vehicle the less confident I felt about the cage. That's why the new cage will be cross braced through the cab and braced over the top. It'll be a PITA to do propperly (that's why I'm not building it) but it'll be better suited to the job.

[BogMonster]

What it may do I suppose is provide several times the safety factor of light alloy Defender bodywork. I have some photos of accident damaged (for which read big rolls) Defenders I have encountered/recovered over the years, which I have had in mind to post for a while. I will post them in a separate thread though.

[Guest diesel_jim]

I agree with Will.

I have the SD full external cage on my 90, bolt together and bolt to the chassis, i wouldn't want to be in an end-over-end roll down a steep hill, but for the green laning and geenral stuff i do, i think it's fine.

it certainly saves the bodywork! B)

When i "overland" prep my 110, i'll get the proper camel type SD (or equivalent...Northern Chris!) internal/external welded to chassis type.

[northernchris]

Sounds like you lot said it all Cage spec is purely down to what the motor is being used for,as Lara said weight up high does not help with body roll or side slope angle.For most "club" situations 1 3/4" CDS is well up to the job of saving your neck,there is two ways to go either very stiff i,e thick wall tube or the more norm 2.5mm wall CDS.

In the event of a "BIG" roll i would rather the cage deform and absorb the energy of the impact than it be still straight as a die.The nergy has to go somewhere and if the cage dnt take it your seat mounts and then your back/neck are next in the firing line.

As for buying cheap it,s up to you to me it,s like buying cheap crash helmets you do get what you pay for.

Chris

[Turbocharger]

A mate of mine is selling bolt-together cage kits, but at Billing he was getting lots of enquiries for just the front external sections, and indeed sold quite a few, with plates out/inside the roof and wing top. It's not going to fall off and certainly helps deflect trees, but little or no use in a roll. Of course, when people are offering him ready cash it'd be churlish for him to turn them down.

[Astro_Al]

Of course, when people are offering him ready cash it'd be churlish for him to turn them down.

Not if they are buying it in the belief that it'll protect them. (Not sure they are - just making the point).

Al.