Hybrid_From_Hell Posted April 20, 2012 Share Posted April 20, 2012 I have done ridiculous offroading, kerr snatch recoverys you name it ******. Daan ****** Includes letting 2 numpties (aka Me + John White) "Inside" with a sledge hammer to "Help" Straighten" roof and sides Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
longlandy Posted April 20, 2012 Share Posted April 20, 2012 My crossmember is 2mm box section folded up from sheet, reinforced where it matters ( a v from the towhitch point back to the chassis). It is a bit pointless to weld 6mm box onto a 2mm chassis in my humble opinion. I have done ridiculous offroading, kerr snatch recoverys you name it. Daan Its to allow it to be a open channel design so there are no water traps and its easy to bolt stuff onto. The chassis is double skinned at the back so is in effect 4mm ,hence 4mm extension plates. The maker is a friend of mine and he tested the design with 4mm and it bent as a open channel so therefore the upgrade to 6mm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
landroversforever Posted April 20, 2012 Share Posted April 20, 2012 Being open it will still trap the carp. I would have thought you better off with it boxed in and made from thinner steel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
longlandy Posted April 20, 2012 Share Posted April 20, 2012 Being open it will still trap the carp. I would have thought you better off with it boxed in and made from thinner steel. So how do you bolt stuff on, or have room for a fuel tank and the tow bolts on a 110. For a td5 you have a rear fuel tank as well which touches the x member. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
landroversforever Posted April 20, 2012 Share Posted April 20, 2012 Either captive nuts or longer bolts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
longlandy Posted April 20, 2012 Share Posted April 20, 2012 Either captive nuts or longer bolts. So you cut open the box and put captive nuts inside? cant have them on the outside as it will fail the fuel tank and you will then need crush tubes which collect water . Have you ever worked on a landrover( riveting on cheq plate doesnt count) ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
landroversforever Posted April 20, 2012 Share Posted April 20, 2012 Of course I have . If I was to build a crossmember I would start with the C section, putting the captive nuts inside and then boxing in the back. With apropriate bracing around the areas of the bolts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retroanaconda Posted April 20, 2012 Share Posted April 20, 2012 I think it's useless trying to make something that doesn't catch mud et. al. since everything will. A boxed in one will find a way of letting mud/water in somehow I guarantee it! What's more important I think is making it easy to wash out. If you can just point the hose in for a few seconds above the rear wheel and it's done then it'll last a lot longer as people will make the effort to do so! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
longlandy Posted April 20, 2012 Share Posted April 20, 2012 I think it's useless trying to make something that doesn't catch mud et. al. since everything will. A boxed in one will find a way of letting mud/water in somehow I guarantee it! What's more important I think is making it easy to wash out. If you can just point the hose in for a few seconds above the rear wheel and it's done then it'll last a lot longer as people will make the effort to do so! Exactly ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
will4x4 Posted April 20, 2012 Share Posted April 20, 2012 I have one of these on mine and its an awesome cross member. problem if you go for a thin one is they just bend up off road all the time. Mine fitted perfectly and looks standard which is great. No mud traps either! i have bought loads of this guy now www.blackheepoffroad.co.uk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poohbear Posted April 20, 2012 Author Share Posted April 20, 2012 Although in danger of bringing this thread back on topic - here is the not so good stuff: 6mm bar with both 6mm and 2mm lap joint: Doesn't look too bad, but behold: Doh.......More practice required methinks! Bring on the ridicule! Dave. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daan Posted April 20, 2012 Share Posted April 20, 2012 ****** Includes letting 2 numpties (aka Me + John White) "Inside" with a sledge hammer to "Help" Straighten" roof and sides It even survived that. Daan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simonr Posted April 20, 2012 Share Posted April 20, 2012 Just a bit more practice. Find something to guide your hand as you are moving along the weld line - like the edge of the plate. Otherwise it almost always wanders. Once you've got the hang of keeping the weld on track, practice moving the torch side to side a little as you move. The smoother and more consistent you can move, the better the weld will look. Bits of your weld look good and others not so good. Initially, I would try putting down a short length of weld say 15mm then stop and have a look. That way it's easier to keep on track and get immediate feedback on how it looks. You'll soon get the hang of joining the good bits together and before you know it you won't need to stop! In many ways it's like flying a Plane or driving, smooth movements give the best ride. Si Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hybrid_From_Hell Posted April 20, 2012 Share Posted April 20, 2012 It even survived that. Daan And re the welding above I would say think long and hard 2mm to 6mm welding etc is as others have siad only as strong as the 2mm plate - but if the welding is not done right then the 6mm plate will shear from the 2mm with lack of continuity / penentration Whilst you may not "Plan" to use the rear cross member "In ernest" one day you will / might and it would be sensible if at that time there is 'no doubt' at all in your mind about its strength The welds above sadly do not make for a huge vote of "Go for it" All the abvove an prev are said in the best of good faith and not as a kill joy or knowitall, just as a concrned LR4x4er Nige Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fozsug Posted April 20, 2012 Share Posted April 20, 2012 I have one of these on mine and its an awesome cross member. problem if you go for a thin one is they just bend up off road all the time. Mine fitted perfectly and looks standard which is great. No mud traps either! i have bought loads of this guy now www.blackheepoffroad.co.uk http://www.blacksheepoffroad.co.uk/Site/Home.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hybrid_From_Hell Posted April 20, 2012 Share Posted April 20, 2012 £75 supplied and £250 fitted says much Sorry I am sounding like the worst of the "Ooooyoudontwanttodoitlikethatyouknowoooohnooo" Brigade Nige Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poohbear Posted April 20, 2012 Author Share Posted April 20, 2012 All comments taken as read, after all that was the whole point of posting in the first place. I don't intend to go 2 to 6mm or 6 to 6mm, the examples posted were just to see what I could achieve. I have plenty of scrap, gas & wire to play with and wont undertake anything on the truck until my welding is up to it. Thanks for all the input - I'll post back once I have something worth showing. Dave. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
longlandy Posted April 20, 2012 Share Posted April 20, 2012 £75 supplied and £250 fitted says much Sorry I am sounding like the worst of the "Ooooyoudontwanttodoitlikethatyouknowoooohnooo" Brigade Nige You really have no idea do you!!! talentless stuck up twit. I supply him with the blanks and his fab skill is beyond what you will ever achieve, he hand makes car body shells from ally for christs sake!! Its takes half a day to fit a x member so whats wrong with £150 labour!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CwazyWabbit Posted April 20, 2012 Share Posted April 20, 2012 I thought HFH was suggesting that the reason the cost was more than 3 times as much when fitted was because good welding takes skill. I think that fitting cost is cheap tbh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bishbosh Posted April 21, 2012 Share Posted April 21, 2012 A couple of points: 1. Weld strength - you need to know the weld throat size and material properties before you can even begin to estimate its strength. For the record, the Steel Construction Institute (SCI) quotes in its fabulous Steel Designer's Manual that a 6mm (leg) fillet weld is worth 0.9kN per mm run in S275, or in simple terms about 100kg per mm. 2. Using preheat will greatly improve the chances of decent penetration - get the blow torch out and heat up the parts to be joined (it helps to tack them together first!!) Having said all that, Simon's 1 ton / inch isn't a bad rule of thumb given the average single pass weld is typically 6mm for us hobbyists and gives a healthy 2.5 FoS which we would all eat into significantly with our welding skills!. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelso 58 Posted April 21, 2012 Share Posted April 21, 2012 Hey !! A Multi pass will give you the srongest weld , 3 stringer beads as apposed to one large weave , gives you a finer grain structure in the weld , just make sure to alternate where you are welding so as not to put too much heat into the one area, but do try and keep it warm as you will get better penetration, Also any joints in the vertical do them up and not down !! Hope this is some help !! Cheers Merv .. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hybrid_From_Hell Posted April 21, 2012 Share Posted April 21, 2012 I thought HFH was suggesting that the reason the cost was more than 3 times as much when fitted was because good welding takes skill.Y I think that fitting cost is cheap tbh Yup spot on Thanks for the personal rant and character assassination really nice ;( Nige Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poohbear Posted April 21, 2012 Author Share Posted April 21, 2012 right - this will be the last time I put myself up for public ridicule, had another play tonight once kids all in bed. I have been trying to prove to myself that I can weld a 4mm to 6mm fillet using my 130A 'hobby' welder. In the following picture the bead on the right was the start of this evening and the bead on the left was the result after and hour or so of 'knobbing' some bits of scrap up, the neighbours must be convinced that I've turned into some sort of abstract sculpture fiend! The first weld was done cold and I preheated the work as suggested for the second. Whilst I accept that I still have some way to go I am sufficiently confident that I can go ahead and order the new cross member and fit it myself. I have a few weeks before I can take the truck off the road anyway so I have plenty of opportunity for more practice. Can I just add that I am very grateful for the frank comments, it has been a huge help and also made me consider the consequences of poor workmanship, I'm surprised that the EU hasn't jumped down our throats and put a stop to the like of us folk who enjoy the 'challenge' of keeping our vehicles alive and running. When I do get the job finished I'll post up the results (assuming the welding is pretty enough!) Dave. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CwazyWabbit Posted April 21, 2012 Share Posted April 21, 2012 One bit of advice that I really need to take myself is ...... When you go to actually do the job do a few practice pieces right before you do the welding on the actual job. If you dont then your crossmember will become a practice piece..... Obviously for those on the forum that have been welding everyday for many years picking up a torch and welding perfectly is easy, for us mere mortals though it's far better to mess up a few practice pieces first Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
longlandy Posted April 22, 2012 Share Posted April 22, 2012 Yup spot on Thanks for the personal rant and character assassination really nice ;( Nige In that case Im genuinely sorry for taking out a week of stress on here and being a #### Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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