EU attacking us again?

[CwazyWabbit]

I have a good friend who is an Assistant Editor on the Telegraph and one time LR owner. He has explained the ramifications of this to their motoring desk who will look into it

Good man, will be interesting to see what they make of it.

[Nigelw]

Oh come on, that's just baseless fearmongering and you know it.

I tend to agree. I was initially shocked but in speaking with a broader audience they all say the same, if it were to come in then it would be for cars manufactured after a point, and not the 30 year historic one either, so say 2014 for example, then cars manufactured before then could have simple enhancements or slight modifications but only to a lesser extent and then over the years they would become obsolete and the newer rules would be in force on the current product ranges, and kind of cloak and daggerish but they would be doing a lot of things by the backdoor too, like over tightening of the tread types for remould tyres etc, to name but one, Russia or America? take your pick, they will be the only safe places for folk who WANT to continue modding their cars(I am joking with this one!!!!), but in seriousness, take a look on youtube, look how many idiots do idiotic things with SUVs 4x4s etc,. and you can't tell me why they don't have any reason to want to ban them or turn them completely soft road, you could argue the same for others that behave like lemons doing other stupid things but there are other laws to try and prevent them too, it's just this one will affect US.

[Gazzar]

Oh, I don't know, sometimes these bureaucrats can lose track of things. I say that the rules, as they are in the UK, are sensible, adequate, and reasonable. There is no real reason to change them. Sure, there ARE muppets that do stupid things, but they are breaking the existing laws, and new ones won't change things.

AS for the hands-free kit, it represents an un-approved modification to the wiring loom, and so could fall foul of the proposals.

If it ain't broke, don't "fix" it.

[Nigelw]

yes but what they are also wanting is that owners do not do things to their cars and have qualified installer brought in to do the work, come back for you as the owner and paid work for someone else, it would then be an approved installation in your vehicle, where by the installer would know what to do in terms of using the existing loom or running a new spur from the fuse box if there is room or fitting a secondary fuse box and running it from there, the idea would be that it would be fitted by someone who is trained in the field of vehicle electrics and who knows what rules are there to be followed.

How many time have you bought an old landy with a bit of dodgy wiring?? I have found spots wired direct from battery to a swtch on the dash no relays to be found, I found stereo's fitted by twisting wires together, no crimped terminals, I even had another car where the wires were cut and twisted together and it was done to save the £5.95 for the adapter wiring and plugs to the ISO plug that went into the back of the radio!! For some things I can see reason, I don't like it but I can see why they want to make it more preventative for things like that to happen.

[Gazzar]

I know what you are saying, but it does take away a freedom we've enjoyed.

I have brought cars to main dealers to have work done and then had to re-do it myself, it's how I've learned! I also believe that as I own the car I've the right to fix it myself. It's mine, I built the engine, why the blazes can't I service it myself?

G.

[Nigelw]

I know what you are saying, but it does take away a freedom we've enjoyed.

I have brought cars to main dealers to have work done and then had to re-do it myself, it's how I've learned! I also believe that as I own the car I've the right to fix it myself. It's mine, I built the engine, why the blazes can't I service it myself?

G.

Rightly so, but I live in Belgium now, I grew up modding my RRCs and series landies, working on mates 110s and 90s for a favor that was never returned by many I might add, I fitted well shoe horned in a 6.2 V8 diesel into my old RRC, fitted Ogden air suspension on my mates 110, I've lost count of the things I have done, never took it to a garage save for an MOT but times are changing, I now live in a country where I can't even slap in the full drive line from my old Disco in to a series 3, something I would have done in a weekend back in the uk, it is a new breed of political system and one that naively thinks that rules and regulations make people safer, well truth is they don't, it's only the training of minds that make them safer, I personally think the UK has the best system going, do what you like take it get it tested and if its not safe get it fixed, gives the everyday man something to spend his money on and spend it locally too, but I can fully see why they want the system to change, it makes the EU one level playing field the common factor being the vehicle manufacturers, it makes it simple too, meaning you could have a European registration certificate and register your car at any address no importing into different member states would eliminate the problems I've had with the Disco this last 6 months, get a standardized MOT valid in any country, that's what all of this is amounting to, standardization metrication of all member states.

G, there was no mention that you could not service your car!!! One step too far!!

[discomikey]

Disco this last 6 months, get a standardized MOT valid in any country, that's what all of this is amounting to, standardization metrication of all member states.

but... i work in good ole imperial measurement!

[Nigelw]

but... i work in good ole imperial measurement!

So do I really f**ks their heads up when I'm building stuff and its feet, inches and fractions

[Jimmy Two-Jacks]

I have been in touch with Tony Baldry. MP who is a client of mine in my day job and after two attempts he replied stating he hadn’t seen my first communication as it had been filtered out by one of his team (thanks for letting me know). He told me that he couldn’t breech political etiquette and address my concerns because he was not my constituency MP (scuppering my back door approach)

However he did say he had personally forwarded my correspondence to my constituency MP David Cameron and I would be hearing from him soon (tick tock tick tock) nothing yet!

I will give it a little longer and I will follow it up with a good deal of political name dropping in the next letter/phone calls/texts etc. And post the response received if any.

All we can do is keep trying

J2J

[discomikey]

Here is the reply they sent to my email:

Dear Michael,

Thank you for your email. Roger is taking a keen interest in this and has asked a question to the European Commission, a copy of which I have attached. The Commission should respond within a couple of weeks and you will be able to find the answer on the European Parliament website by searching Written Questions.

Kind regards,

Alexandra

Attachment:

"The Commission will be aware of the roadworthiness package proposal for a regulation on periodic roadworthiness tests for motor vehicles and their trailers, 2012/0184 (COD).

The proposal would introduce a definition for a roadworthiness test that ensures that components of the vehicle must comply with characteristics at the time of the vehicle's first registration, which could prevent most modifications to vehicles. The proposal would also change the definition of an Historic Vehicle that may be exempt from periodic testing; this may allow vehicles older than 30 years to be exempt from testing providing the vehicle has been maintained in its original condition, including its appearance.

This will mean that modified historic cars will no longer be exempt, thereby increasing the costs associated with them as the parts are now non-standard and expensive, while also making them potentially dangerous in a road system both busier and faster than for which they were originally designed.

Custom car culture is a worldwide interest but in the UK particularly there are many businesses and jobs which would be threatened by this legislation. There are presently estimated to be in excess of two million modified cars in this country and around 28,000 people employed in this industry with a value of £4.3 billion.

Will the Commission please comment on these negative effects that this legislation will have on the classic and modified car industries and provide assurances that the legislation will be modified accordingly?"

so, looks like, they think that all vehicle modifications make cars unsafe and seem to cost the country more??

and this question also suggests that the legislation is more or less a done deal, but they said might be modified...

i.e. were just going to get slowly petered out!

[Nigelw]

I am new on here but not new to Land Rovers and have done more engine/gearbox swaps and modding in general to all of my vehicles from RRCs to series 3s.

Maybe Cameron/Clegg could go one better, allow and implement changes, then grant official asylum for all those vehicles and manufacturers it would affect, therefore keeping everyone happy?

I write in jest, because as far as I am concerned, its almost in place now, this writing of letters and appealing is wonderful but futile, I am not saying stop, but I know how it works, they tell us of the proposals and then allow us to vent our steam telling us to voice our objections to calm us down and make us think we will be fighting our corner and that we can make a difference but the long and the short of it is that the proposal is just the warning for what is coming, I don't vote, I don't care anymore, they do what gets them the best payday end of, look at Tony Blair, ruined the economy and took the great away from Britain and then swanned off into the sunset with a bigger fuller bank account. I drive my car as standard as possible these days as its easier for parts in what ever continent I happen to be in. Get used to the proposals, thats what they ARE going to implement in the coming years, not overnight but within 5yrs to allow for change and investments and to give owners time to put their car back to stock.

If they don't do it this time it really is only a matter of time before it rears its ugly head again.

I posted this when it first camw around and I knew then it was coming, the reply you recieved discomikey is about as good as it gets, and I mean that, I really did try to believe we stood a chance even rallied up some mates in Holland who are none too pleased by the proposals and look how they treat us, £4.3billion 28,000 people becoming unemployed wahoo, leave, while you can, I have, best thing I ever did!!!!

Look how they treat the tax payers who keep their pockets lined, they love you as long as you vote for them and keep paying the taxes, otherwise it's prison or a life of oil painting and boredom!!!

Anarchi will come to Britain again in a wave of tirany to break that tiny cloaked circle those dim wits live in, then it will all be someone elses fault, blame the EU they made us, cobblers scheeming lying toads.

[discomikey]

the only thing for it is to cease being a northern hillbilly and move to the deep (american) south to become a redneck!

atlanta, maybe georgia hell anywhere with a cool accent and 35ft gooseneck trailers.

[Simon Smith]

What about armoured limo's, what are our rulers going to do when the companies that make them have all vanished.

[Jimmy Two-Jacks]

I have been in touch with Tony Baldry. MP who is a client of mine in my day job and after two attempts he replied stating he hadn’t seen my first communication as it had been filtered out by one of his team (thanks for letting me know). He told me that he couldn’t breech political etiquette and address my concerns because he was not my constituency MP (scuppering my back door approach)

However he did say he had personally forwarded my correspondence to my constituency MP David Cameron and I would be hearing from him soon (tick tock tick tock) nothing yet!

I will give it a little longer and I will follow it up with a good deal of political name dropping in the next letter/phone calls/texts etc. And post the response received if any.

All we can do is keep trying

J2J

Update:

Well I did receive a reply by post and I am going to fill in the questionnaire as suggested and return it.

I think that perhaps a few more letters to the very receptive Mr Cameron from forum members would be a good idea. I understand he may not be your particular constituency MP but he is the prime minister and it would serve to demonstrate the level of concern regarding this proposal.

J2J

[Jimmy Two-Jacks]

Update:

Well I did receive a reply by post and I am going to fill in the questionnaire as suggested and return it.

I think that perhaps a few more letters to the very receptive Mr Cameron from forum members would be a good idea. I understand he may not be your particular constituency MP but he is the prime minister and it would serve to demonstrate the level of concern regarding this proposal.

J2J

Perhaps I could copy the questionnaire and post it as a pdf any one could download it and print it and we could all send a copy........

J2J

[landroversforever]

Perhaps I could copy the questionnaire and post it as a pdf any one could download it and print it and we could all send a copy........

J2J

Sounds like a positive reply. Also great idea on the posting as a PDF James . Would be useful as I'm useless at writing letters!

[UdderlyOffroad]

J2J,

You sure the questionnaire isn't the DfT's consultation Nick Williams gave the forum's combined response to a couple of weeks back? (Circa page 10)

Encouraging response though - something for future leverage if nothing else. I've heard good things about DC as a constituency MP - whatever you think of him as a PM.

Matt

(former resident of Clanfield in DC's constituency, though it was Douglas Hurd when I left!)

[Jimmy Two-Jacks]

J2J,

You sure the questionnaire isn't the DfT's consultation Nick Williams gave the forum's combined response to a couple of weeks back? (Circa page 10)

Encouraging response though - something for future leverage if nothing else. I've heard good things about DC as a constituency MP - whatever you think of him as a PM.

Matt

(former resident of Clanfield in DC's constituency, though it was Douglas Hurd when I left!)

It could be the same I would have to check.

It's a start anyway.Clanfield nice place, just up the road!

J2J (Busy writing letters as we speak)

[discomikey]

even if it is the same, the more letters/questionairres sent the better right?

[Jimmy Two-Jacks]

Hi I finally got the questionnaire I received in reply to my letter to David Cameron scanned to PDF and I am posting it here so if you want you can download it print it and send it to the PM or your MEP or constituency MP. Now you may have seen this form before, I don’t know, however

I thought if people printed this and sent the questionnaire perhaps we could achieve a more directed/targeted campaign than perhaps writing lots of letters with divergent views and issues.

Cheers

REQUEST FOR INFORMATION 0810.pdf

J2J

[Jimmy Two-Jacks]

Update with reply from Green MEP:

Dear James ,

Keith has asked me to thank you for your e-mail and to respond to it on his behalf. I apologise for the delay in doing so - our office receives a large volume of constituent correspondence on a daily basis, and it sometimes takes us longer to respond than we would like.

As you are aware, the European Commission has recently proposed legislation to tighten and harmonise across the EU the existing requirements for vehicle roadworthiness tests. This proposal comes under the 'Roadworthiness Package' which aims to enhance road safety and to reduce traffic-related emissions.

Technical faults in vehicles are a major road safety concern, with more than 5 people dying onEurope's roads every day in accidents linked to technical failure. A recent impact assessment on road safety in the EU has shown that the measures proposed by the Commission under the Roadworthiness Package could save more than 1,200 lives a year and avoid more than 36,000 accidents linked to technical failure. Please see the following press release from the European Commission for more information:

http://europa.eu/rapid/pressReleasesAction.do?reference=MEMO/12/555&

Keith is committed to improving road safety and reducing traffic-related emissions, and works hard to promote these issues through EU legislation. In principle, Keith and his fellow Greens/EFA colleagues in the European Parliament therefore welcome the aims of this proposal. However, it is important to be aware that the proposal is currently only in draft form and is in the very beginning stages of negotiations between the European Parliament (made up of MEPs) and the Council (made up of national ministers). The details of the draft legislation are therefore open to change, which makes it impossible to say at this stage whether Keith and his colleagues will support or oppose the legislation.

Upon reading your e-mail, Keith was concerned about the potential impacts of this proposal on the historic and modified car industries and agrees with you that EU legislation should not prevent vehicle owners from carrying out modifications, as long as they are not dangerous. These concerns were raised at a recent meeting of the Transport and Tourism committee, and Keith waspleased hear reassurance from the Commission that the proposals will not outlaw vehicle modifications. Having researched the issue, it seems this has been an unfortunate misunderstanding of the proposed legislation, stemming from inaccurate reporting on the issue across theUK. The legislation in factstates that for vehicles which have been modified between roadworthiness tests, it will now be a legal requirement to resubmit the vehicle for testing to ensure that the modification is in line with safety requirements. I am sure you will agreewithKeith that this is a common-sense measure which represents a positive step towards protecting the lives of road users.

Keith is sympathetic to concerns that some of the proposals may imply extra costs for road-users and testers. However, given the number of road accidents this legislation is expected to prevent each year, Keith would rather see lives saved than safety measures not adopted because of price.

It is also worth noting that the frequency of roadworthiness testing in the UK will not change under the proposed legislation. The current system in the UK, under which vehicles must be submitted for testing 3 years after registration and then every year following that (3 - 1 - 1 system), is in fact more stringent that the Commission's proposals for a minimum requirement of a 4 - 2 -1 system.

I hope that this information has been useful and goes some way to allay your concerns. Keith understands that this is a very important issue for you, so please be assured that Keith values your views and has considered your objections carefully. He has also asked me to let you know that he has raised your concerns with the Green transport advisors, and together they will carefully consider any adverse impacts of the legislation on the historic and modified car industries in any upcoming negotiations on the legislation.

As previously mentioned, Keith is strongly committed to improving road safety, both at EU level and across his constituency. For some examples of the work that Keith has been doing in the European Parliament and across his constituency in this area, please see the transport section of his website at:

http://www.keithtaylormep.org.uk/category/transport-aviation/

Please do not hesitate to be in touch if you have any further questions.

Kind regards,

Krysia Williams

Constituency Caseworker

Office of Keith Taylor MEP

Green Party MEP for South East England

The European Parliament

Rue Wiertz

1047 Brussels, Belgium

Tel: Fax: +32 2 284 9153

www.keithtaylormep.org.uk

If you would like to receive Keith's bimonthly e-newsletter please

e-mail keithtaylor@greenmeps.org.uk putting INFO as the subject header

[Nigelw]

By that then Jimmy do I take it this has been a much-a-do-about-nothing?

Seems to be very glossy, but I do wonder whether there is an underlying hidden truth behind the shine

[reb78]

By that then Jimmy do I take it this has been a much-a-do-about-nothing?

Seems to be very glossy, but I do wonder whether there is an underlying hidden truth behind the shine

Most of the other forums think that this has been blown out of proportion by misunderstanding which hasnt been helped by bad reporting. Some have also suggested that UKIPs have encouraged these inncaurate (if thats what they are) rumours to further their cause.

The one thing that does worry my in Jimmys post is that their is a suggestion that we need to get our vehicles re-mot'd everytime a modification is made. How minor the modification has to be to warrant this might mean that it is sensible, or a complete PITA. However, i suspect, if this is the only thing that changes with our legislation, then we can carry on as normal really.

[UdderlyOffroad]

A few pages back there's link to an official EU blog post denying the intention to ban modified vehicles. At least one LR comic has parroted this.

The problem for us is (IMHO) that any change in legislation as a result of this will be enforced to the letter by empire-builders at VOSA. Remember the 31mph motorbike test?

I'd like to see a bit more of a breakdown of this "5 people a day die due to technical failure" - what's the betting the distrubtion is virtually zero in the UK & high in places where roadworthiness testing appears to be optional? Won't name countries but I'm sure quite a few of us have been on holiday to countries within the EU & thought "holy <deity>! How's that shed on the road how come it hasn't been stopped by the <country's> rozzers!"

[Jimmy Two-Jacks]

Most of the other forums think that this has been blown out of proportion by misunderstanding which hasnt been helped by bad reporting. Some have also suggested that UKIPs have encouraged these inncaurate (if thats what they are) rumours to further their cause.

The one thing that does worry my in Jimmys post is that their is a suggestion that we need to get our vehicles re-mot'd everytime a modification is made. How minor the modification has to be to warrant this might mean that it is sensible, or a complete PITA. However, i suspect, if this is the only thing that changes with our legislation, then we can carry on as normal really.

I think given the gist of the reply from UKIP regarding my enquiries that perhaps they saw the mileage in terms of anti EU sentiment that would be generated by a very draconian proposal by Brussels and were slightly disingenuous in their reply.

Their reply went down the line of and of course I am paraphrasing:

“This proposal will pass into law but we will repeal it if you vote us in next time”.

Dealing with Politian’s always makes me feel unclean..

From what I can gather the situation regarding re-submitting the vehicle for testing after any modification is currently the standard in Germany. Looking on the bright side this is better than an outright ban of all non “vanilla” vehicles but it is still an erosion of a freedom enjoyed at present but I suppose even though its a PITA, if it weeds out the badly modified and downright dangerous all to the good IMHO