New member needs advice on uprating brakes on a Series 2a

[Rob_K]

Hi,

I am a new member to this forum. I have bought a 1959 series 2a SWB Landrover with a hardtop and 2.25 petrol engine. It is an ex RAF vehicle. It has been badly "restored", if you can actually use that word to describe the state of it. The steering has a bit of back-lash in the steering box, but it is still drive-able. The issue I have with it is the brakes. The are very poor. They are not servo assisted and pull to the left slightly. I really have to lean on the brake pedal to get it to stop. It is as agricultural as my 1970's International Harvester tractor.

Are there any upgrades that are possible with the brakes to improve them? I would like to at least fit some form of brake servo. Is it possible to retro-fit any brake servo from another Landrover? It has freewheel hubs and I would like to keep it as original as possible, but I would fit a servo on the brakes if it can be done without any major surgery. I would like to do it so it is "un-doable" if I ever wanted to restore it to it's original condition for a 1959 vehicle.

Any ideas? Thanks in advance...

Cheers,

Rob

[secondjeremy]

When they're working properly they should be perfectly adequate - so if they are no good there's something wrong. Problems can be budget new linings that only touch on the ends of the shoe, siezed bottom pivots, siezed cylinders, collapsed hydraylic hoses as well as air in the system and general hydraulic problems.

All parts are readily available, some are amazingly cheap. I'd get it working properly bufore considering modification.

Much the same goes for the steering - check the joints, then make sure there's oil in the relay (very important), the steering box and the swivels. Also check the arms on the top and bottom of the relay are tightly bolted (55lb ft.) Tracking is important as well.

[BSF]

I am pretty sure that Series 2s and 3s have the same holes in the bulkhead for the brake and clutch pedals with the same 6 bolts to hold the assembly in. That being the case get the complete pedal assembly for a servo braked series 3 with the servo (you need the whole assembly because apart from the 6 bolt holes it is very different). When I did it the guy took it off and sent it to me for about £50.

You will have to do a bit of pipework and find a vacuum source.

If you keep the old pedal unit on a shelf in the garage you can always re-fit it if you get nostalgic.

Of course, if you really want brakes that not only stop, but also do not cause a lurch to one side or the other (often unpredictable), you need a disc brake conversion. I have a series 1 80 inch and a series 3 109, both with disc brakes and no-one ever notices unless I tell them; the vehicles stop quickly and predictably.

[Serious Series]

Common brake failure problem is actually hub oil seal failure allowing oil to get on the shoes best check all the drums 1st as servo will not improve contaminated brakes.

Just had to do my rear offside 5 years since last renewed seal , this time have changed the land that he seal runs on and fitted Coreteco seal.

[Snagger]

The dual line, servo assisted system from a SIII would be a relatively cheap and easy retro fit that would provide very good results. The twin leading shoe 11" front system from a 109 is very effective, but is a pain to bleed, as is the PDWA valve in the dual line system (which could be omitted and replaced by the level sensing cap from a Discovery or RRC.

Disc brakes are better still because of their ease of bleeding (if the PDWA valve is removed, anyway), and their self cleaning and adjusting nature. They're no more powerful than well maintained drums, but they're much easier to live with because of the much reduced maintenance. It does get expensive to buy the kits, and fitting coiler LR parts is challenging.

[Pollywog]

Early 90/110 brake pedal assemblies with the type 50 servo will also bolt in place if you can't get a good series 3 one. I put a Defender one in my current project just yesterday to go with a disc conversion, I did have to rebend the pedal to straighten it up as it is bent to the right on a Defender not leaving much room in my footwell.

Later type 80 servos are much bigger and you'll probably have difficulty making one fit in a 2A. It's worth having a read of this: http://www.expeditionlandrover.info/dual_brake_conv.htm

As everyone else has said it's worth stripping down and refurbing your current arrangement, and making sure it's all properly adjusted before you decide to change too much as a lot of folk are happy with the standard.

If you decide to go even further then there are a few disc conversions available. The Zeus kit is the cheapest but uses E-Type calipers and machined discs and won't take standard wheels, the Rocky Mountain kit uses GM parts and machined discs and again won't take standard wheels, the Heystee & Roam kits are the best as they use replacement swivel housings and hubs designed to take standard Defender parts but they are also the most expensive. I went for the Heystee kit as after reading the problems people are now having getting spares for the old Chris Perfect systems I decided getting a kit that uses standard LR spares would be best as I plan to keep the vehicle for a long time. It will also allow the use of standard rims and looking at it built up I think I'd even be ok with 15" rims if I wanted to. Esentially when I've finished I will have an early Defender brake system in my Series 3 but it would of been cheaper to buy an early Defender...

[Michele]

^^^ What the Snagger said ^^^ !!!

[tacr2man]

Dont be tempted to go the whole way and fit the TLS wide brake system from a 1 ton 109 as its too much braking for a 88 , they tend to lock up very quickly in the wet .

[Rob_K]

Hi, again,

Thanks for all the replies and advice. I will have to pull the brakes apart and service them. First, I have to set p the workshop, as I have just moved from Derbyshire to Shropshire and my workshop is a stack of boxes and I can't find ANYTHING, and I've still not finished moving.

If servicing the brakes does not make things better, I will look into the options of a servo from a series 3 or Defender (as detailed in the answers, above) and possibly a disc conversion. For thew way I drive, I reckon a servo on well serviced drums may do the job.

I also do not have a heater in this LR, and I bought it to use on the hills in the winter. I have been looking at heaters and found that the round Clayton model is well reviewed. Does anyone have any experience with Claytons, Smiths (round) and alternative heaters for a series 2a?

Cheers again...

Rob

[Snagger]

My recommendation for SII 88 brakes would be to fit late SIII (1980+) 88 brakes. My wife's 1980 Lightweight had 11" SLS front brakes and I think it had 10" rear, with the dual line circuits and servo assistance. It worked beautifully. Make sure you match the master cylinder to the slaves - I later had to fit my 109's old master cylinder as a temporary repair when the LW's master blew a seal, and the pedal became much harder and braking effectiveness was markedly reduced.

By doing that, you will be fitting a standard 88" brake system as designed and certified by LR, so should not face any problems from your insurers or the authorities (should you have an accident). I'd still run it by your insurers before you start and get a brake test and engineers report afterwards, just to cover your back side legally and as a double check or your work.

I now have the complete disc brake system from a Discovery on my 109, and while maintenance is simple, braking is no better than with the original system.

[Phil Hancock]

for SII 88 brakes would be to fit late SIII (1980+) 88 brakes. My wife's 1980 Lightweight had 11" SLS front brakes and I think it had 10" rear

The late 88" system was 11" x 2.5" wide TLS fronts and 10" x 1.5" wide SLS rears with 1.250" diameter cylinders at the rear which are the same cylinders as fitted in the 10" fronts. The pedal box/servo/master was the same as the 109" model had.

[Snagger]

for SII 88 brakes would be to fit late SIII (1980+) 88 brakes. My wife's 1980 Lightweight had 11" SLS front brakes and I think it had 10" rear

The late 88" system was 11" x 2.5" wide TLS fronts and 10" x 1.5" wide SLS rears with 1.250" diameter cylinders at the rear which are the same cylinders as fitted in the 10" fronts. The pedal box/servo/master was the same as the 109" model had.

Good to know I was right about the slaves and drums - I never actually measured them and was working on "appearance". The pedal box and servo were identical to my 109's, but the master cylinder was not - the 109 cylinder had a more rectangular reservoir, rather than round-ended, and the pipe connection threads were different (and also had slightly different positions relative to the servo), needing new pipes to be fabricated for the temporary repair.

[FridgeFreezer]

Welcome along!

What they said with brakes - if you've got the old-style non-servo setup there's quite a bit that can be done, if kept in good fettle the later drum setups can be plenty adequate although it can get a bit wearing if you spend a lot of time off-road. Unfortunately there's still no painless route to discs all round on a Series.

Heater-wise, there's various options. Bolt-in options are easy enough from the parts book, there's "rip anything promising out of a scrap car" or the modern equivalent (eBay), there's also my preferred route of going for an Eberspacher diesel-fired air heater as these can blast out a lot of heat independently of the engine and give you a bit of artistic license in mounting, ducting, etc. Used ones can be had for £150 ish on eBay, just make sure you get a 12v one with all the bits (fuel pump & controls). Quite a few people on here run them so a quick application of the search button will yield plenty info.

[Normbourne]

As regards your steering box, with the series 2A, there is provision to adjust the play in the steering box. On the side, there is a bolt wih a locknut, just slacken same, turn the bolt via screwdriver slot, until the play is taken up, then re tighten the locknut. To get to it, there is a bolt on cover under the wing.

I had the same prob when I bought mine, but in addition, the ball joints were worn.

[Snagger]

Re the heating, I replaced my SIII heater with a newish Defender TD5 unit, which was a big improvement but still struggles to heat a 109. An Eberspacher like Fridge suggested would be much more effective, its down side being a lack of demisting ability.

Steering is often woolly on old vehicles. Check for wear in the rod ends and swivel pins, make sure the steering column and relay housing are firmly fixed tot heir supporting structures, the steering arms are tight on the relay and steering box, and the swivel arms are not moving in relation to the swivel housings (the studs can wear thin). When adjusting the steering box, slacken the lock nut and then the centre square section adjuster (consider removing it to drain the old oil out for replacement), and then tighten it finger tight only - any tighter and you will cause rapid wear to the rocker shaft fork and the main nut taper.

[FridgeFreezer]

I reckon if you were cunning you could put the Eberspacher so it blows through the existing vents - it's what I plan to do when I get round to fitting a dashboard. That said - heated windscreen for the win!

[Soren Frimodt]

On my 80" I fitted a remote servo, and am really pleased with it. The neat thing about it is that you can hide it anywhere you want if you like that original look. I put min under the seatbox, you can see it here:

From post #205

http://forums.lr4x4.com/index.php?showtopic=55657&page=11

And re heating, I fitted an ebersprächer in such a way as described by FF, blowing in through the original airducting, although it was on a 90" it could easily be done on a S2. There are many advantages one of them being you can preheat the car before setting off, really nice on old Landies as nothing fog's up as much as them during the winter! And as the 90" had a 200TDI it wouldn't get any heat in the heater matrix for the first 100 miles or so

[Snagger]

I reckon if you were cunning you could put the Eberspacher so it blows through the existing vents - it's what I plan to do when I get round to fitting a dashboard. That said - heated windscreen for the win!

Just fitted a pair for this winter, and am fitting a pair of Defenderdemisters to the dash top for the side windows (since the windscreen won't need as much airflow). The screens seem good - the elements are really fine and nearly invisible, with just a slim foil strip along the top and bottom as a give-away. The demisters are ugly as sin, but if they work, it'll be worthwhile.

[Phil Hancock]

Good to know I was right about the slaves and drums - I never actually measured them and was working on "appearance". The pedal box and servo were identical to my 109's, but the master cylinder was not - the 109 cylinder had a more rectangular reservoir, rather than round-ended, and the pipe connection threads were different (and also had slightly different positions relative to the servo), needing new pipes to be fabricated for the temporary repair.

The rounded end resevoir is the earlier imperial threaded version of the master and the square was the metric threaded version that was fitted to later vehicles.

[Michele]

When adjusting the steering box, slacken(...) and then tighten it finger tight only - any tighter and you will cause rapid wear to the rocker shaft fork and the main nut taper.

I'd also jack up the front and put it on stands so the wheels are off the ground, as the manual says

Thanks for the "finger tight only" tip, I used a spanner on mine yesterday, but I was quite delicate

Good idea that Eberspacher! Note taken...

[Rob_K]

Hi,

I have had time to get the bonnet up and look at the master cylinder. I found that there is already some form of servo installed, but it looks like it was retro-fitted, as there are chunks cut out of the bodywork to make room for it and the cut marks do not look like they were done in the factory.

I have taken a few photos of the reservoir, master cylinder and servo body. The photos are a bit hazy, as they were taken in poor light with a mobile phone. Can anyone identify what this assembly is from these photos, or do I have to dismantle it to identify the assembly? If I know what I have already, it might make it easier to plan to service and upgrade the braking system to get it serviceable. If these photos can identify the system that has been fitted, what can I expect from the brakes after they have been serviced? Are there any compatibility issues with it?

NOTE: I have not uploaded photos to this site before, or included them in posts. The URL for my album is below. Please let me know if these are accessible and can be viewed.

Regards,

Rob

[Phil Hancock]

That's a series 3 assembly with the earlier type dual line master cylinder, the hacked wing is because series 3 and late 2a wings are narrower at the back to clear this servo/master cylinder set up and your wing is an earlier 2a wing.

[bill van snorkle]

Aside from changing over to 11" brakes all round, the change that improved braking consistency the most was to fit Stage One/110 hub oil catcher rings to direct any oil seeping from the hub seals out to the axle side of the backing plates instead of over the brake linings.

[Rob_K]

Thanks for the replies, Bill and Phil. OK. That helps to give me a plan for sorting this out. This system has not been touched since I bought the Series 2a last May. There may be oil contamination on the linings. This may explain the poor braking from a servo assisted system. I will have to strip the whole lot down and put all of it right.

Bill, is it possible to retro-fit this Stage one/110 oil catcher ring into the hub seals on the hubs that I have at present (assuming they are standard), or does it require any re-machining or changes of other parts.in the hub area? These improved seals sound like an obvious improvement to make and I would like to incorporate this into my overhaul plan.

Cheers,

Rob

[Snagger]

The catcher rings sit on the inside of the brake back plate, bolted through using the same six bolts that hold the back plate and stub axle to the axle case. They sit around the inboard end of the hub and catch centrifugally thrown oil, allowing it to drain to the bottom of the cavity inside the catcher ring, where it is directed away safely via a drilled hole at the bottom of that void to the other side of the back plate and through a slot in the bottom edge of the stub axle flange, so that it can dribble harmlessly down the visible side of the back plate. I would expect the rings from any post 1980 axle, including 90/110 rear axles, to fit. You may need to drill and slot the backplates and stub axles accordingly.