Feasibility of a 90?

[Nigelw]

Have just been offered the chassis and papers for a 90.

Now, I have never been a Defender fan but since the disclosure that the Defender will cease production in 2015 I have come to the conclusion that it could be a long term cash investment so to speak.

Thing is, chassis and papers are it, nothing else at all!!!

How feasible/possible is it to actually build a 90 from pretty much scratch with only a chassis?????

Cue plenty of phht!! and eeerrrrr comments.

I would add that I am leaning towards the notion that this would mean that the Rusty one does not become as special as I once hoped as he would be the donor of running gear as they are from that period, ie, engine, gearboxes, suspension and axles, could possibly see a rather large chunk of his wiring loom adapted into it too.

So possible or am I drinking too much again

[tacr2man]

Its probably the easiest vehicle to build there is ( parts availability probably slightly better than a series by now) . JMHO

[Tanuki]

Rather than thinking about issues of wiring - before you start I'd be looking very much at the type-approval/legal- taxation- and insurance-issues you are likely to encounter when you want to get your vehicle on the road.

I don't know how aggressive the authorities are in much of Europe but here in the UK there are many obstacles to getting a "bits and pieces" vehicle registered. If you do start on your build, get proper invoices [showing the payment of VAT where appropriate] for _every_ part you use. And check that the engine you use still complies with appropriate local emissions regulations.

[Anderzander]

I would imagine that building one from bits works out to be at least as expensive as buying a complete vehicle ?

[Nigelw]

I would imagine that building one from bits works out to be at least as expensive as buying a complete vehicle ?

How wrong you are for my little county!!! Start your prices at around €8,000 for a reasonable one, yes I saw a couple for around the €6,000 mark but they are well worn!!! A quick scan of the Belgian internet sales sites and there are few to choose from and even then of similar ages they are all €8,000 and start going up steeply!!!

Rather than thinking about issues of wiring - before you start I'd be looking very much at the type-approval/legal- taxation- and insurance-issues you are likely to encounter when you want to get your vehicle on the road.

I don't know how aggressive the authorities are in much of Europe but here in the UK there are many obstacles to getting a "bits and pieces" vehicle registered. If you do start on your build, get proper invoices [showing the payment of VAT where appropriate] for _every_ part you use. And check that the engine you use still complies with appropriate local emissions regulations.

I could not agree more for keeping invoices etc, but I am certainly no expert here as far as Defenders go but if I were to build it out of parts but build it to actually be the 90 on the papers then would it need anything more than a new safety test and drive on?

And as far as aggressiveness of authorities, they are completely against vehicle modification. As far as vehicle modification goes, I read(with the great help of Google Translate) on my Belgian forum that Belgium has been hauled over the coals in the European courts for their actions since 2011 with the refusal to register any vehicle that does not have a CoC(certificate of conformity), basically Belgium used the CoC as leverage against imports of cars from other countries where modifying is allowed, they want factory specs and dealer serviced. So now they have had their a55es kicked for it, they have now allowed the import of cars from other EU countries as long as they have had a safety test not older than two months as this is deemed an EEC compliance and is approved in other member states, I have been chatting with a guy about it all and he says that although they "MUST" allow the import and registration that does not mean to say that when the next technical inspection is due you won't have a problem! I have a good friend who owns a car dealership and a great many of his clients choose a car type and spec list and then he has a given time frame to find them the car they want, he sourced a fantastic Audi for one client early last year, only problem being that, Audi did not sell that particular car in Belgium and it was sourced from Germany with higher spec suspension etc, and although a better car with higher specs and safety it was not allowed as it had no Belgian CoC and as it was not actually sold within Belgium, it (under their idealized system) was not allowed to be registered and had to be sent back, utter tripe IMHO but that was the system then, and little indication that the powers that be actually want it to change either.

Oh and I must point out how this system works if you do not know it already? A car must first be safety tested before it can be registered to an owner/keeper, but to get a safety test you must provide them with your CoC and registration documents for the vehicle, when the vehicle has passed inspection you can then apply for registration in your name and will be assigned a registration plate, the plate is for that vehicle as long as you own it and when you sell it on you must return the plate and any subsequent new vehicle will get a new registration plate.

So although they can do a "look over" safety test before accepting it to be registered that is not to say there won't be problems next year.

Hope that makes sense????

But this would not be a modified vehicle as such as it would be built almost as per a factory vehicle just a few updates here and there, or am I over simplifying it?

[Tanuki]

Like I said I don't know the detail of Belgium's registration process for "assembled from parts" vehicles. The thing to think about is "will the authorities consider your rebuilt vehicle - even if using old parts - to be a 'new' vehicle?" Just because you use an old chassis does not mean they will allow you to treat the resulting car as if it was the car-it-once-was.

The UK system allocates you 'points' for each component of the original vehicle - chassis, steering, suspension, engine, transmission, bodywork. To retain the original registration/vehicle identity you have to score more than a certain number of points. If it does not score enough points you have to put the vehicle through an "Extended Single Vehicle Approval" - which as well as the things they test on the usual annual mandatory safety check also includes things like a noise-test, an emissions test [which is _not_ based on the age of the old engine you used!], brake balance, a check of speedometer accuracy, check that there are no protruding non-radiused sharp edges on the inside/outside - they check that there's a working demister, steering-lock, proper anti-burst latches on the doors, they may require an immobilizer of some form to be present - and then the authorities allocate you a new Vehicle Identification Number and a new registration number before you're allowed to tax/insure it and take it out on a public road.

In the case of Land-Rovers, here in the UK you're going to get the vehicle crawled all-over by the Police too, checking that none of the parts have things like engine-numbers ground off or re-stamped. Land-Rovers are usually stolen and stripped for parts here in the UK: which is why I made the point about getting receipts and such.

You do have a receipt for your chassis I hope!

[Nigelw]

You do have a receipt for your chassis I hope!

Oh yes!!!

They don't do anything like the SVA/IVA system here, basically, it is what it is, and if it conforms to the CoC that comes with the papers then they have to test it as the car it was, even if it was rebuilt it is still what it once was as the chassis is the identifying component of the car, nothing will be changed just built up accordingly over 2/3yrs.

[Nigelw]

Here we go again, visiting a new 4X4 parts shop today really threw me a sideways swing, what to do, carry on with this 90 or take on a CAMEL TROPHY Discovery that was campaigned in 1992 by the Belgian team?

What to do?????

[Anderzander]

Get all of them Nigel....

[CwazyWabbit]

Camel!.....Camel!.....Camel!.....Camel!.....Camel!.....Camel!.....Camel!.....Camel!.....Camel!.....Camel!.....Camel!.....Camel!.....Camel!.....Camel!.....Camel!.....Camel!.....Camel!.....Camel!.....Camel!.....Camel!.....Camel!.....Camel!.....Camel!.....Camel!.....Camel!.....Camel!.....Camel!.....Camel!

I seem to be sightly in favour of the Camel

[jbs]

Camel!.....Camel!.....Camel!.....Camel!.....Camel!.....Camel!.....Camel!.....Camel!.....Camel!.....Camel!.....Camel!.....Camel!.....Camel!.....Camel!.....Camel!.....Camel!.....Camel!.....Camel!.....Camel!.....Camel!.....Camel!.....Camel!.....Camel!.....Camel!.....Camel!.....Camel!.....Camel!.....Camel!

I seem to be sightly in favour of the Camel

Noooooo, Let Maverick have it-well he seems to have a menagerie of other L/R stuff lol, Just crack on with the 90 Nigel.

John

[Anderzander]

Camel!.....Camel!.....Camel!.....Camel!.....Camel!.....Camel!.....Camel!.....Camel!.....Camel!.....Camel!.....Camel!.....Camel!.....Camel!.....Camel!.....Camel!.....Camel!.....Camel!.....Camel!.....Camel!.....Camel!.....Camel!.....Camel!.....Camel!.....Camel!.....Camel!.....Camel!.....Camel!.....Camel!

I seem to be sightly in favour of the Camel

Just for the avoidance of doubt : is it the camel you think he should get ?

[CwazyWabbit]

I do seem to be coming around to that way of thinking Mav's already got a Camel Disco and if he really needs another one .... http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Camel-Trophy-original-japanese-team-discovery-1997-mongolia-/261318071716?clk_rvr_id=538690787040

[Maverik]

I was having da ja vue for a moment their, I posted in your build thread about this.

Yeah I've got a blasted CT Disco, which is under the knife at the moment, due to some role cage exacerbated tin worm...!

I can't deny owning a CT truck is an extremely rewarding thing, the amount of folk that come talk to you is immense... but it comes at a cost of some quite special parts which if aren't included can be pricey/hard to come by... Think carefully as it will suck up more money than you think, and if its a Defender you really want then don't be swayed off the path...

There are a heap of CT disco's on the market at the moment so not a bad time to buy as prices should be a little lower than usual...

But don't sacrifice the Disco for a 90 build, that would just be really silly...

[Maverik]

I do seem to be coming around to that way of thinking Mav's already got a Camel Disco and if he really needs another one .... http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Camel-Trophy-original-japanese-team-discovery-1997-mongolia-/261318071716?clk_rvr_id=538690787040

That's quite a special truck, its as good as the advert says, and one of those catch 22 type vehicle's, its value is a bit of a difficult one to pin down.

[CwazyWabbit]

I did notice there were quite a few camels for sale, but this one did look a bit special, sounds like a lot of the original parts are still there Although finding that much cash and keeping it in that condition would be hard work.

[Nigelw]

In all honesty I have never really been a great lover of Defenders, I got excited once and bought a reasonable 110 for £4500 had it a week and got fed up as it was barely any better than my series 3 109 that I had, although yes a lot of work went into the series I just expected better of supposedly the next generation Defender, sold it for £7000 to a local guy who got very excited when I brought it home, probably another reason why I never tell anyone the true price I pay for my cars, can mostly make quick and easy money.

Still not sure, got a lot of thinking to do and go poke around it of course.

[Daan]

my advice is to stick with one car, that works for me. judging from your disco buildthread, the one you have gives you enough trouble as it stands. By all means swap it for a defender or a CT disco, but 2 landrovers = twice the trouble and expense. Even so, the time you have spend on your current disco would be wasted and hardly recouped by selling it. This is why I still have my old series 3, as I cannot face loosing the lightyears of time I spend on it over the last 23 years.

Daan

[Maverik]

my advice is to stick with one car, that works for me. judging from your disco buildthread, the one you have gives you enough trouble as it stands. By all means swap it for a defender or a CT disco, but 2 landrovers = twice the trouble and expense. Even so, the time you have spend on your current disco would be wasted and hardly recouped by selling it. This is why I still have my old series 3, as I cannot face loosing the lightyears of time I spend on it over the last 23 years.

Daan

VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY sound advice there...! (my 90 is what Daans series 3 is to him...)

[UdderlyOffroad]

In all honesty I have never really been a great lover of Defenders

If 'fenders aren't your thing, why put in the graft for something that isn't your idea of fun? A contemporary Disco will have a decent heater, more comfort, and the same off-road performance. The appeal of the Defender, to me is its customisability (if that's a word). If you want to keep it 'stock' for an everyday driver, you might as well keep a Disco.

That said, if you're confident that the rolling chassis has the correct paperwork for the Belgian authorities - and you've got the room to store it, go ahead. You could slowly build up bits and panels, and build it up as and when funds allow. This would allow you to drop on new/refurbed components and have a decent 'fender to sell/run as you see fit. Even if you change your mind half way through, you should get back what you've spent on it.

Personally, I'd stay away from Camel anything. Too many beardy-weirdys demanding authenticity down to the last nut and bolt, as well as a massive amount of kit you don't want to carry around on a daily basis - that's my opinion based on no more than having had a sniff around one at show though!

Matt

[missingsid]

If you have an old chassis with paperwork and build it up using correct year secondhand parts, the only thing that will even suggest it is a rebuild would be the change in engine number. Sure the authorities could possibly use Factoy build records to check gerabox and axle numbers if the information is available but unless there is a reason to do so they would not know.

Before you all scream RINGER, this surely what happens to any car/ motorcycle restoration otherwise there would be no need for Autojumbles!

Marc.

[Nigelw]

my advice is to stick with one car, that works for me. judging from your disco buildthread, the one you have gives you enough trouble as it stands. By all means swap it for a defender or a CT disco, but 2 landrovers = twice the trouble and expense. Even so, the time you have spend on your current disco would be wasted and hardly recouped by selling it. This is why I still have my old series 3, as I cannot face loosing the lightyears of time I spend on it over the last 23 years.

Daan

I have taken all afternoon to reflect on this post and given it a lot of thought.

I suppose with this one drawing towards a road worthy completion in the next few weeks I kind of wanted something on the back burner to keep me thinking and tinkering, but I got a bit project happy in my head and I suppose the fact that I probably won't get to do another full on project after this I was looking for something to give it my all and be a real spot on job where it does not matter whether it stands idle in the corner of the yard in the summer under a tarp only to be dragged in for build up when I have time and parts.

In truth I think feel a little silly as I got carried away with my dreams of building a one off 90 as some sort of asset and when the Came Trophy Disco came up within days I then had a cow and the "I want" tantrum of a spoilt child told me I "had" to have one or the other.

I don't have to have either, kind of dawned on me thinking about your post Daan, having Rusty has been a year of trials and tribulations and a steep learning curve/reminder of how much energy it takes to keep momentum up in a project, especially when you get bogged down in it and see little progress after hours/days of hard work.

Certainly not a hasty decision but I have decided not to take on either project at the moment and to actually carry forth with Rusty, there are a lot of things I always wanted to put on my trucks and Daan is right, why try and spread it between two trucks? I have this one and can actually give it all of my attention and all of my GFs money so why not make a better job of this and see what happens in a few years time?

With prices falling faster than Jordans panties I could pull a D3 by then

[bill van snorkle]

IMO no Landrover is feasible or makes any sense to any but the certifiably insane ! And I most certainly include myself in that observation Lol.

I would be a much wealthier and more worldly individual had I chosen an FJ40 Cruiser in the first instance all those decades ago. Unfortunately the only cure for LandRoveritus appears to be death itself, and after spending four and a half decades mainly on my back in all weathers, body all twisted and contorted in an effort to make them go or keep them going, blessed relief from this insidious disease is well in sight.LOL.

What the hell is wrong with the 'smileys' on this site ? they only work for me 20% of the time.

[Anderzander]

I don't know what's wrong with the smilies - but that's an excellent post

[Daan]

I have taken all afternoon to reflect on this post and given it a lot of thought.

I suppose with this one drawing towards a road worthy completion in the next few weeks I kind of wanted something on the back burner to keep me thinking and tinkering, but I got a bit project happy in my head and I suppose the fact that I probably won't get to do another full on project after this I was looking for something to give it my all and be a real spot on job where it does not matter whether it stands idle in the corner of the yard in the summer under a tarp only to be dragged in for build up when I have time and parts.

In truth I think feel a little silly as I got carried away with my dreams of building a one off 90 as some sort of asset and when the Came Trophy Disco came up within days I then had a cow and the "I want" tantrum of a spoilt child told me I "had" to have one or the other.

I don't have to have either, kind of dawned on me thinking about your post Daan, having Rusty has been a year of trials and tribulations and a steep learning curve/reminder of how much energy it takes to keep momentum up in a project, especially when you get bogged down in it and see little progress after hours/days of hard work.

Certainly not a hasty decision but I have decided not to take on either project at the moment and to actually carry forth with Rusty, there are a lot of things I always wanted to put on my trucks and Daan is right, why try and spread it between two trucks? I have this one and can actually give it all of my attention and all of my GFs money so why not make a better job of this and see what happens in a few years time?

With prices falling faster than Jordans panties I could pull a D3 by then

Hang on, someone listening to my advice? That is a rarity these days. I cannot tell you what it is like to have 2(or more) land rovers at the same time, I just know that the one I have always need more work than I have time for. I also met several people who had more than one land rover but for some reason, none of them running; the logic here is that th previous Landy had too much work to do, so they bought a second one. This then broke down in big way, too much work too fix, so they bought a third one. And so on and so on.

Hel, even maverik agrees and according to his signature, he has six!

Daan