Budgie chirp

[Peaklander]

Hi all,

300TDi in a 110 CSW 1996.

I know that there are many threads talking about this subject and believe me I have read a good chunk of them.

The other day I replaced the bearing in my serpentine tensioner pulley to eliminate the chirp which has started to annoy me big time. I used an SKF 6203RS and it was no trouble at all to do this. I'm running on a new Dayco belt (< 7,000 miles).

However it hasn't eliminated the budgie. So this evening I have been having a further look and using a bit of wood as a sounder and also spinning the other pulleys. I was 100% convinced that the noise is coming from the idler. To prove this to myself I squirted a small amount of WD40 behind the nut / domed washer and in from of the new bearing. Lo and behold the noise vanished.

So I removed the idler pulley again and had a good look at what could be squeaking. It's a new bearing of course and I have concluded that its a bit of slippage between the domed washer and the inner sleeve of the bearing. I have tried to tighten this a fraction more but there's still a squeal.

Its a complicated shaped washer - at least mine is. I'm wondering (and this is the question), if this washer might have worn at some stage so that its not loading the bearing sleeve quite enough. Has anyone else had this specific thought?

I don't know if a washer is available on its own or indeed if I could add a flat washer as an extra thickness. There's no reference to the washer on its own - it is part of ERR4708, the entire unit. This ranges in price from £27 to £54 depending on what none-LR make you buy. Gen LR is of course a little more than that.

So does anyone have any idea of the true profile of the washer and/or where i might get another? Or in fact if I'm still barking up the wrong tree?

(apologies, I've posted this in another forum too, but I'm tending to read this one more and more...)

Thanks

[vulcan bomber]

Are you sure it's not the belt? Our 300 disco is an absolute pest at the minute for eating the belts. You fit a new belt, its quiet for about 100 miles and then it starts chirping. After a couple of thousand miles it reduces the belt in width, taking bonet insulation with it and then shuts up for a good long while, gets chirping again and then snaps not much later... I will get to the bottom of it 1 day...

[Boydie]

Check the alignment of all the serpentine belt pulleys. The belt is a micro-vee belt so it only needs to have one of the pulleys 1mm out of alignment and the belt will squeal and very quickly fail.

I found that the fan pulley on my 300Tdi was about 2mm out of true alignment and the alternator 1mm the only solution was to have that amount machined off the back of the fan drive pulley face to bring it back to true and shim out the alternator.

Since then I've had no more belt problems and I get well over 60,000 k's out of a belt.

[garymorris]

I'd change the complete tensioner if I were you , there's a thin plastic type washer ( black in colour) which wears , sometimes you'll see it poking out .

[miketomcat]

If I recall there's a problem with the front casing that may or may not of been fixed by land rover the permanent bodge/fix used to be to lossen the tensioner slip a bit of hacksaw blade under one side (can't remember which without looking) and Re tighten. This changes the angle it runs at a cures the misalignment and the chirp.

Mike

[GW8IZR]

If I recall there's a problem with the front casing that may or may not of been fixed by land rover the permanent bodge/fix used to be to lossen the tensioner slip a bit of hacksaw blade under one side (can't remember which without looking) and Re tighten. This changes the angle it runs at a cures the misalignment and the chirp.

Mike

I've read this on line, one site makes quite a thing about fixing the squeal for 1p. It seems hard to believe that all of the vehicles that have been fixed are out by exactly the thickness of a 1p shim which is presumably fit at various random positions at the back of the idler. I have wondered if rather than fixing the alignment issue - is it just adding some pre load to the bearing which shuts it up.

My Bearmach idler was out of true to the pin and I faced it in the mill before fitting it, it made not one jot of difference - after maybe 10 hours running you can now hear a feint chirp.

Interestingly (to me) for a long time I thought it was a simple lubrication issue in the bearing as a squirt of grease cured it, but recently I found just a bit of water just on the belt also shuts it up .

[miketomcat]

I have "fixed" two 300tdi's this way neither chirped again (machining wasn't an option at the time). I'm astonished this problem hasn't been addressed properly by a machining mod at production of the idler mech. Maybe land rover sorted the front cover on later models.

Mike

[GW8IZR]

Thing is that once i trued up the idler it seemed to fix the issue but only for a short while, that's why I am beginning to think the addition of a big random shim is actually making it a long way out of true and the pre load is whats 'fixing" the issue.

I've no doubt it stops the noise, hundreds of people have done it and no one says it didn't work, I'm just curious as to waht actually fixes the noise.

[Peaklander]

I might regret it, as it may not directly cure the chirp (as per comments above - very interesting BTW) but during a mild bout of insomnia last night, I found a new Bearmach branded full tensioner at a respectable price so I 'nabbed it'.

As I said in my post, a very small squirt of WD40, between the domed washer and new bearing, stopped the squawk. I'm convinced that's where my noise is coming from.

I promise to update this thread a bit later in the week :-))

[miketomcat]

I think your misunderstanding what the "shim" does (i apologize if your not) in standard form the belt runs across the pulley at a slight angle creating friction and wear thus a squeak. The shim changes the angle of the pulley bringing it back in line with the belt (viewed from above) it doesn't change the tension in any way.

Mike

[GW8IZR]

No need to apologies as its often hard to explain in words what is a simple concept, but yes I know what the shim is supposed to do but I'm not sure in most cases it is.

I fitted a new bearing and machined my idler true to the pin, that was set up to a few thou run out on the mill and whilst short term it fixed the chirp - it didn't fix it long term., the chirp also comes and goes and just wetting the belt.. not the bearing will shut it up.

I find it inconceivable that everyone who has done the penny fix has bothered to measure the run out and place the shim exactly where it needs to be. Adding a 1.5mm (ca) shim at the surface of the timing cover at anywhere between all the way in to almost all the way out is going to make quite a difference to the adjustment of the run out AND we dont know how much out they are, are they all the same ? No one reports that they had to move the penny about to get it true - they just stuff it in and it works.

Anyway in my case I'm never happy till I understand whats happening so I'll keep looking at it from time to time til I get to the bottom of it :-)

[cackshifter]

Was it a C3 bearing that was used? As they have extra clearance (ie slop) and are original fitment.

[Peaklander]

Was it a C3 bearing that was used? As they have extra clearance (ie slop) and are original fitment.

Hi, yes I ordered 6203 2RSH C3 although when it came I wasn't sure how to identify the C3 option as it wasn't on the label so I'm not absolutely sure (and I fitted it anyway).

[oneandtwo]

I have fought with the chirp on two 300tdis that I've owned, both of them have been ancillary alignment issues.

One was a replacement alternator being slightly out of line, found after replacing everything with new, including the fan pulley front cover. On the other engine it was a brand new blue box waterpump that failed within 20miles.

My squeaking was caused by the misalignment causing the belt V's to wear against the pulley V's - this caused rubber debris to fill the bottom of the belt V. I could pick all the debris out and would run quiet for 20 mins before the squeak happened again, check the belt and sure enough it was full of compacted rubber debris again. The debris would actually cause the tensioner to jump up and down very slightly when running. Both engines had stood a while and had loght surface rust on the pulleys which probably didn't help either by making them slightly abrasive.

I shimmed the alternator mount with m8 washers, and replaced the pump with an airtex on the other engine, fitted new Dayco belts, and have been fine ever since without a penny in sight and no debris in the belt grooves.

[oneandtwo]

Just to add if you remove the belt and shine a light on it, the debris can be seen compacted in the grooves as either shiny streaks or small balls of rubber which can be dug out with a small screwdriver

[Snagger]

I found on my 300Tdi the noise was coming from the water pump, even though it initially seemed to be from the top idler. The fan spindle bearings can also make noise as they have greased-for-life bearings which dry out with age. Unfortunately, they have a non-standard integrated bearing pot and shaft, so can't be replaced separately from the timing cover, unless you have a new shaft made and the cover machined to take off-the-shelf replacement bearings. Doing that cost me slightly less than a new cover and bearing assembly, but it will be cheap next time the bearings wear out.

[Peaklander]

Here's my update.

1. I received a new Bearmach tensioner and fitted the whole thing and the chirp was even louder. .

2. Refitted the old one but used the washer from the new ( as I had though that it was a squeak between washer and tensioner pulley) - still a chirp.

3. Reverted to new pulley and new washer / bolt but that's the same.

4. Left these on and changed the belt (Dayco which has ~6,400 miles on it) - putting back the old belt (don't know brand or mileage as it was on in Dec '14 when I bought vehicle).

Chirp has gone and don't know if I need a smiley or a cry! One thing, I don't feel as though I'm at the root cause.

...The fan spindle bearings can also make noise as they have greased-for-life bearings which dry out with age. Unfortunately, they have a non-standard integrated bearing pot and shaft, so can't be replaced separately from the timing cover, unless you have a new shaft made and the cover machined to take off-the-shelf replacement bearings. Doing that cost me slightly less than a new cover and bearing assembly, but it will be cheap next time the bearings wear out.

Snagger I don't know where you mean when you say "fan spindle bearings". I must be being thick...could you explain please? Thanks

[Snagger]

The spindle that the fan sits on has bearings in a single steel pot pressed into the timing case front cover. They dry out wear. If you romve the belt, you might be able to feel lateral play or end float on the fan shaft. Spinning by hand won't produce a noice because th bearings ar not under significant load, but once the belt is on and turning fast, the side loads on those bearings are quite high.