Gearbox recon turning out to be a mistake !

[IanT90]

Following on from my last saga when I couldn't bleed the clutch, I have since been up to the lakes in the old girl. Having now fitted the slave the right way up and finally got it bled (or so I believed).

Occasionally I am still struggling to select gears, the worst being 2nd odd times 3rd and 4th. Seems to be worse when I first start off, not sure if the clutch slave or master are not fully bled properly. Then I get spells where the gears just slip in perfectly no problem. Which is why I have not taken it back to the place that did the gearbox reconditioning as i suspect its a clutch/hydraulic problem which in fairness they didn't touch.

However, since I got back I have noticed another oil leak from the gearbox/transfer box which I didn't have before the oil appears to be congregating around the transmission brake housing.

Prior to the gearbox refurbishment I only had a couple of leaks left to sort, one between gearbox and transfer which they where suppose to do. The others where at the prop-shaft unions to the diffs front and back and a small one on the OS swivel (that's another job to do at later date).

My dilemma now is why I am getting intermittent problems changing gears, have I overlooked something obvious. I was told to wedge the clutch pedal down overnight and bleed it the next day that sorts out the air locks completely. Even thought of taking it to a garage to check it out in case I have fitted the master clutch cylinder incorrectly last time I did it ! and the pedal height or distance is wrong ? Even wondering if the pedal mechanism is linked to the problem but struggle to see how?

I also now have to grow a pair and get back on to the transmission specialists about the leak too as It cost me an arm and a leg and I am now worse off leak wise than before specially as it cost me an arm and leg for the gearbox recon and clutch replacement (won't admit how much it cost me but wasn't cheap). Although it was less than a local Land rover specialist quoted £1800 plus labour.

Anyway as usual I would appreciate any advice or recommendations

Regards Ian

[western]

transmission brake is on the transfer gearbox, so that leak shouldn't have anything to do with the main gearbox change,

have you set up the gearlever bias spring as per the LR manual, gear lever should move easily between 3rd/4th, with a sideways push to select the other gears.

[cackshifter]

Sounds like you have seal problem on the rear of the transfer box. There's a Tech Archive article about that. Before doing anything else check the transfer box breather isn't blocked - that would also apply to the axles.

[IanT90]

Weird that I should get a reply from cackshifter as I got the gearbox done in Bolton, at A1 transmissions.

As they had both the gearbox and transfer box off, replaced the input shaft, gears 2,3 and 4, plus all new synchro rings (genuine LR - expensive) I would be surprised if the breather is blocked particularly as both boxes had new oil in too. Plus I never had a leak there prior to this work being done either !

As for the diff/prop-shaft seals they are most likely worn, no Idea when of if they have ever been changed based on the jobs I have come across in the last year on the damn thing.

Had pretty good idea it was from the transfer box but you never know oil sprays from all over the place and sometimes the source is not obvious. I assume the guys reset the spring bias correctly as position appears okay and more often than not it does slip into 3rd and 4th easily, its when I try to change down the gears from 5th that 3rd and 4th it is a bit of a struggle occasionally.

If spring bias was the problem I would have expected to have problems selecting gears all the time or at least locating 3rd and 4th but I may stand corrected on this !

If the rear seal has gone shouldn't they have replaced it as matter of course ?

Still convinced its a clutch/hydraulic problem as gear changes as sometimes really slick then other times a pain.

Next time I am off work may try a system bleed again just to put my mind at rest.

Thanks for the replies

[Guest_001]

I recently replaced my gearbox with a new one (along with a new clutch, all at great expense) and had problems engaging 3rd and 4th without a fight.

I was beginning to get very depressed about it but then read about the bias spring adjustment under the gear stick. Bl00dy 'ell, it worked a treat after that!

[tacr2man]

When you look to set up the gearlever it pays to check that the turret that the lever bottom sits in has not worn (common) because if its the case it doesn't matter how you set up the bias spring it wont work properly , when its perfect it should just be a slight flick of the wrist to change gear . I had Ashcroft build me a hybrid 380 , as was not at all happy with the change, i then replaced the bottom of the gear lever , turret and bush , and it was a total transformation .

[IanT90]

I will look into both checking the bias and wear on the turret.

What is noticeable is it's always worse first thing after I set of on a journey, then after driving for a while seems to improve particularly the 2nd gear.

I originally had problems with 2nd, 3rd and 4th that's why I took it for a rebuild, now it seems worse than before really regretting it. I work 12 hour shifts so don't get much time when I finally get home, but next time I get 3 days off I will start by checking the bias. If that does not resolve the problem then I will check the turret for wear (probably re-bleed hydraulics for my own peace of mind).

If none of those resolve it I will take it back to the transmission specialists and let them sort it as I paid enough to get the work done originally.

What does disappoint me is the day I drove it home the gear changes where really slick, go so far as saying perfect could change gear with just my finger and thumb ! The following day it started to deteriorate so if the bias had been out would have thought it would have affected gear changes from first day same with worn turret ?

Thanks for the reply's and advice regards Ian

[Guest_001]

Sometimes - usually with the right revs - it slipped into gear perfectly. Other times, it only went in with much hashing and swearing

I was thinking either the gearbox was duff or I'd built the clutch wrong.

Once I got the 10mm spanner and a 002 thou feeler gauge onto the bias spring setting, it was so much better and very slick - transformed.

I still don't really understand how an adjustment of a gearstick thingamybob affects the gearbox but it does - very much so.

Good luck with it, whatever it turns out to be. Hopefully a quick fix and back to enjoying the Landy. Keep us all posted on developments and the eventual cure.

[IanT90]

Thanks I will have a go next Wednesday when I am off and keep you posted.

Regards Ian

[IanT90]

You are right by the way I noticed the same thing, seems to slip in easy sometimes when the engine speed is at certain revs then other times its a pig !

Just a thought

Owing an old Land Rover is a bit like a relationship with a woman:- When its all new, you look at it with rose coloured spectacles and you love it to pieces. Then after a while you start to see faults develop or fault arise that you failed to notice in the beginning, but still love it. Then more problems arise and expense grows and it starts to become a love hate relationship. Then just as you start to get it just the way you want it and you have spent a fortune on it, either it goes off with another man (stolen) or you start thinking I should have got a younger model that wouldn't give me as much grief. Finally though logic prevails and you realize that newer models have there problems too and can be more expensive to maintain (ie ECU's, EGR valves, more electrics to go wrong plus more road Tax). Then there are the jobs you can't do yourself, so its more expense at the garage. That's when you realize that although the old girl is a pain in the rear sometimes, at least you do know what the faults and foibles are and you learn to live with them

Must admit this gearbox issue is annoying me now, so still in the hate stage. But if or when its all sorted, I am sure I will love driving it again and forget all the hassle and grief its giving me then on to sorting the next problem on the list.

[IanT90]

Becoming more convinced its a hydraulic problem. Every time I set off after it's been stood for any length of time it's always a struggle to get 2nd and 3rd,4th are a bit sticky too. However, when I have been driving it for a while problem seems to ease off. The 2nd slips in easily with no problem 8 out of 10 times and hardly any problems selecting with 3rd and 4th changing up either.

Changing down from 5th to 4th or 3rd still a bit hit and miss though, so suspect that could be the gear stick alignment. I will tackle next week when I am off.

The problem now is that although I am off next week for 3 days, I don't have anyone to help me bleed the brakes and as I was advised by a learned gent on the forum not to use an easy bleed kit so I am at a loss. I could take it to my local garage, but resent paying when its an easy enough job to do and specially if it turns out not to be the problem after all.

I was advised to chock the clutch pedal down and leave it overnight like that, has anyone heard of this process ? and does it work ?

The other option is to reverse bleed it using an oil can connected to the bleed nipple, but but last time I tried it not much success. Wasn't able to get the hydraulic oil to pump out the can, it was cheap one.

[reb78]

Why not use an easy bleed kit like the gunson one? Mine makes brake and clutch bleeding a doddle. Key thing is to make sure the cap and seal are correct for the reservoir otherwise you can end up with a mess!

[western]

I just have a one way valve in a tube, works for my clutch & brake bleeding. IIRC it came from Halfords.

[Retroanaconda]

I've never had to fully bleed a Land Rover clutch.

I just get someone to work the pedal enough to get fluid at the bleed nipple and a pedal of some kind, after that I find it sorts itself out over the next few hundred miles.

[IanT90]

That's what I thought that if I drove it around for a while it would eventually sort itself out but not this time. I have a Gunson easy bleed and used it in the past with success. Last time though I managed to cross thread the cap on the reservoir and fluid when everywhere.

I managed to modify the cap off my old master cylinder as a replacement but not tried it since, I was advised on an earlier thread (apologies can not remember who ) and they recommended that I don't use an easy bleed I can't remember them stating why though.

But I will try my easy bleed again with the modified cap, see if that sorts it. Alternatively I like the idea of the one way valve system basic and makes sense too.

I have also been considering other scenarios why I am having problems: I changed the master cylinder earlier this year and been wondering if I set the pedal at the wrong height or the pedal assembly is at faulty.

I measured everything up before hand and replaced the new master cylinder with like for like distances. However, I did notice the clutch pedal was approximately 1/4" to 1/2" lower than the previous setup. Its below the height of the brake pedal where as previously they where in line.

The clutch operation seemed fine so never really worried about it, but now I am wondering if the pedal height is incorrect and I do have an air lock maybe that's giving me problem ?

Seen some previous links where members have replaced there clutch pedal assembly's again can not remember details of why or symptoms, but was wondering is this linked ? May do a search see if I can see anything but if anyone has experience in these matters would appreciate the advice.

In the mean time I plan to check the gear stick alignment and re-bleed the system on Wednesday when I am off.

[dangerous doug]

You can change gear without using a clutch. Something on the clutch broke on my vivaro and I drove it home from Aldgate in London to Brandon in Norfolk slipping the gears in by matching the rpm to road speed. You had to stall it at traffic lights and start it in first but it can be done.

Are the shims and right length rod used on the clutch slave? There is a video on YouTube of a guy reverse bleeding a clutch system with a squirty oil can which I have done with some success. If you do it that way don't rush it and get a good can as I didn't and had to re do it.

Edit

[Scotts90]

If you can engage 1st gear first time every time and move off/carry out hill starts etc then I can't really see it being an issue with air in the clutch hydraulics. The pedal, master and slave are doing the same operation regardless of gear selection so it should play up for any gear ratio. If the gearbox was in good condition then as Doug says above you should be able to carry out shifts without the pedal. It's a sad thing to admit but I like doing this anyway, it can make for some really smooth shifting once you learn the art!

[IanT90]

Must admit been doing that myself recently maybe thats why the problem is on and off ?

I considered why I could always get first gear with no issue and start off no problem, so that sort of confirms it may not necessarily be the clutch.

I also wondered if the push rod was the right length too, but again wouldn't I have problems with the gear selection on first or fifth and reverse ?

I have watched the reverse bleed video on you tube that's why I bought the oil can to try it, but didn't have much success it was a cheap can and couldn't get the fluid to pump from the can.

In the mean time I have ordered a one way bleed valve as mentioned by Recovery man cost me £4.99 (bargain and less hassle than setting up the easy bleed) should arrive Wednesday just in time. Only down side is having to keep topping the resevoir up and manually pumping the pedal.

Think I will still get the gear stick alignment done first, then bleed the system. If no improvement I will be ringing A1 transmissions and they can have it back to sort, as I have paid enough money to them to get the gearbox reconditioned. Plus I have an additional oil leak on the transfer box which was not there when I took it in.

Thanks for the feedback

[IanT90]

Gents

Need a bit of advice following on from my saga with the gearbox. Spoke to the gearbox specialists this morning told him about problem selecting 2nd and other gears being generally okay,so convinced him it wasn't the clutch.

He is fairly certain its the oil viscosity that's causing the problem as selection of 2nd is predominantly at start up and improves as gearbox warms up. Which I tend to agree with thinking about it logically it does make sense.

He has recommended changing the gearbox oil from the MTF which Land Rover recommend (and I supplied), for ATF which he say's is what they normally put in the gearbox and they have done a few Land Rovers in the past, this should sort the problem. If not he will have to speak with Land Rover who supplied the synchro rings as that is the other possible fault ?

Although I am keen to get this sorted I don't want to do so at the detriment of the gearbox, does anyone know of a reason why I can't use ATF in the gearbox in stead of MTF ? after all if Land Rover specify a particular oil it must be for a reason ?

Bear in mind apart from daily commute back and to work, I will only be using it mainly the odd camping holidays so occasional long haul down motorways and minor roads, maybe the odd green lane trip once its all mechanically sound. Not planning regular off road events or towing heavy loads !

I have planned to take it in on Thursday so would like some feedback or advice before hand.

Regards Ian

[reb78]

Land rover used ATF (dexron III) before MTF became available, so it was the recommended oil for the LT77 (still is as far as I can tell) and the early R380. So, in my opinion, you should be fine with ATF.

I run my LT77 on ATF - have tried MTF and the fancy difflock evo stuff, but notice no difference between the three, so have stuck with ATF as that is cheaper to change more often. Others report miracles upon changing to MTF and others when changing back to ATF! Give it a try and see.

[western]

LT77/77S still meant to use ATF as far as I know, R380 changed to MTF94, other option is Difflock's evo 1 fluid.

[IanT90]

Thanks for that appreciated.

Mine is a R380 box standard ratio, assume its a later version as its a 1995 reg (although I cannot be sure if its the original box).

As long as there is no long term major impact using the ATF that's the next move forward. Rather change that every 12 month and have a nice smooth box than what I have now.

Annoying part is I read the previous threads singing the praises of MTF so bought 5 litres earlier this year (expensive stuff). Thought it might help solve my gear change problems, but when it didn't that's when I took it in for the gearbox reconditioning.

Must admit partially worth it the input shaft was worn and clunked when I changed, that's gone. Changing up through 3rd and 4th better too, so new gears and synchro rings have had an impact. Just need to check gear selector alignment, hopefully changing down through 3rd and 4th should be sorted. Plus they found corrosion on chassis after removing the cross member that's sorted Chassis all welded and solid. I also now have a new heavy duty clutch and selector fork etc fitted, so there are some positives.

Keep you updated when I have had the oil changed.

[IanT90]

Hopefully to conclude the saga to the old girl back to transmission specialist yesterday he changed oil then noticed the oil leak but with the new fluid.

I left it with him and went back today, oil leaks sorted and now can select 2nd no problems from cold start.

Amazing what a change of oil can do.

I am a happy man again

[IanT90]

First day I have driven it from cold following the gearbox oil change, fired her up this morning selected first and pulled away then with fingers crossed I selected second and it floated in RESULT.

I am still amazed it worked, but what the hell a simple solution. I had all sorts of concerns about the gearbox set-up (following the rebuild), clutch set-up and gear stick alignment. Now I feel a lot more confident that during the winter months I will have trouble free gear selection.

Just got to make sure I change the gearbox oil more frequently than I would have done with the MTF oil.

At last I can now go ahead and get on with my next set of jobs: cam belt change and rear brake assembly overhaul I can now forget about the gearbox and clutch

[Scotts90]

Glad to see you got this sorted. Amazed the oil could create so much grief though.