CV Jointed Series Axle - custom or Stage 1 V8

[twodoorgaz]

Hi everyone.

My head is spinning and I could do with some advice. I'm onto yet another build (kit-car and a Jeep in progress at the mo) and I'm back on LRs. I learned a huge amount on the last one (nut-and-bolt SIII), it was lovely but didn't suit me - I want a more usable transmission, brake and engine setup. Oomph in other words - but with the character of a leaf sprung old dog.

I need want a CV jointed front axle on my next Series - (strength and permanent four wheel drive). It'll be a LWB auto. I don't want to be crass by mentioning money, but just to make it clear I'm not messing, I've budgeted around £1-1.5k to do the front axle as I'm expecting to have to pay for machining, custom shafts and possibly case-narrowng - if I can do it cheaper then great. Obvs discs would be nice, but that's easy as there's plenty of kits out there (Heystee and others) so thats not an issue - the issue is the CVs.

The project can't get off the ground till I've decided on a front axle. And its a nice, neat project with lots of shiny bits I can do on the bench while I'm waiting to drag one of the projects into the garage. I love refurbing LR axles - weird but its the most satisfying bit.

I don't want full-width coiler axles (plus there's the steering linkage can-of-worms), so that leaves me four options:

1) Fit non-LR axle - no issues with this as long as its Dana or Toyota. I'm told there is a particular Toyota axle that is a similar width with the same steering arms and leaf-sprung, but I can't get confirmation which model it comes from - I suspect its an early Land Cruiser that never made it to the UK

2) Fit a Stage 1 V8 axle - rare, but doable. Downside is that everything is like hens teeth and things like disc brake kits probably need machining.

3) Narrow a pair of 101 axles - easily doable, but there's the fixed swivel issue and they're Sals so diff clearance would bug me as would the case spreading issue with the diffs - plus I'd probably end up upgrading to full D60-sepc which would bankrupt me..

4) Convert a Standard axle to CVs.

My question here is about option 4 - converting a standard axle to CVs. There used to be kits available, but they are NLA. Paul Heystee was very patient and helpful but says he took it off as it was a bit of a tricky job, he can still do it in their machine shop but it was way, way, way over my budget. Credit to Paul though - he clearly knows his stuff and if I could stretch that far I would, my main concern was that I didn't fully understand the work he would do and as I might need to buy/fabricate spares in the future, I'd prefer to plan the work myself.

He told me that the conversion would include:

2 special half shafts

Standard swivel Balls (std Series)

Standard Series Swivel Housings

Standard Series hubs

Standard series drive members (24 spline)

2 CV Joints (std Defender)

2 stub axles (defender)

1 spacer kit (V8 conversion)

As a further bit of help - here is an excellent article here about fitting discs to a stage 1 and includes the machining required to use standard swivels. Also Pegasus Parts have released a kit for the Stage 1 that allows use of the more common CVs see here.

But the list above gives a tantalisingly close set of instructions of what bits to fit.

The aim of the game isn't just to get CVs in - a few people have managed that. Its to do it in a repeatable way, with measured parts that can be reproduced in the future

So, I will need:

Custom shafts - I expect these to be something like Stage 1 V8 ones. 23 spline at the CV and 10 spline at the diff (or 24 spline if going for late-coiler diffs)

Standard Series Swivel Balls - I would expect that these would have to be machined like the Stage 1 V8 article above to clear the CVs

Standard Series Hubs and Stndard 24 spline drive members - I'll just grab these from a LWB or Late-SWB SIII

2 CV Joints - standard defender. Which ones though? Also would these need to be turned down like the pegasus ones above?

2 Stub axles - standard defender. Which ones?

1 Spacer kit (V8 conversion) - no idea what this means?

I could go back to Paul and push for details, but it isn't fair - He gave me a quote in his last message and I can't run to the prices, so I don't want to waste his time - its a great company and I hope he continues to do well. Besides I would like to do the work myself. I don't have a machine shop so I'll have to have that done for me - but I'd like to be able to give them some accurate instructions.

Phew…. I might actually sleep tonight after getting that off my chest. Would really welcome any advice or tips - I aim for an OEM look on my builds. Non-standard, but OEM.

Thanks for patiently reading

[ejparrott]

Interesting. The Series swivel appears to be the heavier item, so gives a possibility for machining. That's the option I'd go with to be honest - I'm assuming there's a reason it has to be permanent 4WD?

Where in the world are you?

[twodoorgaz]

Thats my thinking too - seems like an elegant solution, using common coiler parts to bring a series axle up to modern standards.

It'll be a powerful motor coupled with an auto box and permanent 4x4 - hence the CVs. There are plenty of options for part time 4x4 (LT230 converted to part time, or R380 plus series transfer box, SM465/T90, etc) but I have my heart set on permanent 4x4 - besides it spreads the load better so I wouldn't need a mahoosive rear axle.

If I can't manage it - my backup is a ZF HP22 (with the HP24 internals), LT230 converted to part time 4x4 and upgrading a rear Sals to full D60 spec. I could then go Seriestrek 24spline + UJs on the front. If I go Rover V8 the above works, if I get a new Crate GM V8 then the auto box would probably be an old-school Torqueflte 727 like the early RR (upgraded to full 727-spec rather than the odd, less robust spec that LR used in the RR) coupled with an LT230 part time 4x4 - the weak point would then be the transfer box (plus the leaves and steering!).

I digress massively, for the time being (in my odd little mind) if I can use standard LR components to build a CV front axle then I'd be satisfied with a standard cross-bolted 4.0 RV8 and box from a cheap disco - plus it would save a large pile of funds.

I'm in England - but spend a lot of time with car nuts in the US, where my partner is working. Hence all the US components mentioned (its a goldmine of potential for LR-fans once you get your head around it.

Needless to say this is a toy - but one that will inevitably cover a lot of road miles once I get hooked (again).

[twodoorgaz]

Another excellent post from this very forum - why this didn't show up in my initial search I don't know

[ejparrott]

I've got spare Series balls, no CV's to play with though

[missingsid]

Hi,

Can't help about the swivel bit however I have finished my custom series/RRC axles which use RRC corners on Series axle cases.

This is not an idea that you have considered but is relevant in the use of half shafts. As I needed shortened RRC ones I was directed by Ridgeway to KAM Diffs, they make long spline shafts for their locking diffs which over the years means that three of the four shafts have 150mm long slines at the diff end (24 spline) they now have the fourth shaft with the same, the idea is that you or they will cut them down to the correct length (cheap Stage 1 half shafts) but will suit a custom solution at around £150 a shaft!, you cannot get this via their distributor Allmakes as they are not interested as they would be small volume for them, so you need to go direct to KAM on their old phone number if that is possible?

This may or may not still be an option but it has saved me £2,000!

Marc

[Arjan]

See my comment on the axles in your other post.

These disc brakes are a bolt on conversion with no need to take out the grinder etc...

Made by Zeus, simply bolt on and forget.

Well worth the money.

Very happy with.

[daslandroverman]

Recall reading about a front disc conversion which involved fitting rangie/disco swivels etc with shortened shafts into a Series front axle with a small spacer between the swivel and axle to leave the axle the same width.

Seemed a pretty neat solution to me, not sure of it was in the technical archives on here or elsewhere.

Would be a sensible option and uses standard parts aside the spacer and half shafts, which I believe were made by cutting and welding standard rangie ones.

[western]

or what about the axles from a Santana Anibal PS10 as they run on parabolic leaf springs. if you can find somewhere that scraps/breaks them for parts.

[Bowie69]

Recall reading about a front disc conversion which involved fitting rangie/disco swivels etc with shortened shafts into a Series front axle with a small spacer between the swivel and axle to leave the axle the same width.

Seemed a pretty neat solution to me, not sure of it was in the technical archives on here or elsewhere.

Would be a sensible option and uses standard parts aside the spacer and half shafts, which I believe were made by cutting and welding standard rangie ones.

Pretty sure discomikey did this on here, though I think he is still waiting for a custom shaft to get made! There was another one that was complete, with as you say a welded shaft, but the name escapes me.

[Jon White]

I'm part way through doing this at the moment, I've just not got my finger out lately to get it sorted. I've got most of the bits and have it mocked up on the workbench.....

Early one piece cvs can be made to fit into a series swivel. You just need to fettle the inside of the inner swivel housing with a die grinder as you've already found. The defender stub will require turning down on the inner face to fit into the series outer swivel housing as its a smaller diameter on the series. The cvs will just fit through the hole by the way. Beware that the stubs are very hard and difficult to machine.

Also note that the defender stubs use the same size wheel bearing inner and outer which means you have to use late series3 hubs that use the same bearings. This is where I'm at at the moment as I need to re make my disk brake conversion onto the new hubs. I've got all the bits just not got round to it.

Half shafts will have to be custom. I've not yet got round to ordering any. You could use off the shelf one stage one v8 ones if you want 10 splines at the diff. I want 24 spline 300m ones as I'm fed up of breaking front shafts.

Finally you'll need to make up a carrier of some description to take the oil seal at the inner side of the swivel housing. The stage one v8 used a pressed steel cup for this purpose but they're nla, and have been for many years.

Hth

Jon

[missingsid]

As I posted used KAM halfshafts quater the cost of customt shafts and off the shelf so no waiting!!!!!

Why would you want custom??????

Just sorting my spring perch wedges and my front axle will join my rear axle on the S1.

[Jon White]

Have you actually got a set of these shafts, as I was told by KAM that they couldn't help me? They were my first port of call....

They could do the long shaft no problem, but couldn't the short one. Admittedly this was some months ago....

[twodoorgaz]

Some really excellent advice there chaps - I'll keep an eye on the KAM shafts too. Off to start buying some donor axles to strip and measure-up. Will probably make a mock-up using old worn parts to make sure everything works, before using new bits to recondition the units once done.

[discomikey]

Pretty sure discomikey did this on here, though I think he is still waiting for a custom shaft to get made! There was another one that was complete, with as you say a welded shaft, but the name escapes me.

Cheers Bowie, yes that's how I did it. Good news, I have now got some shortened shafts. I just need to get round to fitting them now though!

To date I have no complaints at all. In fact the wheel bearings seem to be lasting much better than series ones ever did, and the pads, 60-80k miles on still have loads of meat left. I did change the master and servo for an early (non g-valved) 90 master for a little better brake balancing.

[Jon White]

Where did you get the shafts from discomikey?

[discomikey]

I shortened them myself using a lathe, for those interested, it seems standard halfshafts (from a coiler) are NOT CASE HARDENED AT ALL, except from where the splines are.

the horizontal band saw ate them for breakfast!

Once welded i stuck them back in the lathe, polished the welds back and heated the HAZ up using oxy/acet and let cool again (to dissipate stress), whilst using a hammer to ensure they were as straight as possible. end result theyre straighter than standard shafts!

[missingsid]

Who did you talk to at KAM?

Allmakes owns the sales but they won't sell anything they consider a limited market i.e. stage 1 or modified specials.

I went direct to the old sales team.

Maybe I was just lucky?

[Jon White]

How long ago did you get them?

I spoke to Nigel Barker, who was going up there to speak to Kevin about something else.....

[twodoorgaz]

Thanks again folks - nearly have it sussed now. Few more axle bits to collect and I can start mocking up.

[vulcan bomber]

I shortened them myself using a lathe, for those interested, it seems standard halfshafts (from a coiler) are NOT CASE HARDENED AT ALL, except from where the splines are.

the horizontal band saw ate them for breakfast!

Once welded i stuck them back in the lathe, polished the welds back and heated the HAZ up using oxy/acet and let cool again (to dissipate stress), whilst using a hammer to ensure they were as straight as possible. end result theyre straighter than standard shafts!

No, there just forged EN19T Loverly stuff to machine.

[jai_landrover]

I've done similar I have the Stub machined to fit the swivel housing. I have fitted the Defender CV into the chrome ball but am currenty shimming the CV to get the joint in line with the steering as the ball is larger the CV needs to sit further in to make the joint pivot in the right place. I have had quotes for custom shafts. they will take 6 weeks to come in 300m material. No warranty however the guy dd say you wont break them. they wasn't cheap about £200 ea but if we get a batch made then will be a bit cheaper. I want a couple of sets. once the CV's are in the right position then I have a spare axle case to cut up and make some dummy shafts the exact length as patterns to send off.

[jai_landrover]

If anyone wants to swap 2 useble decent series swivel balls std I would happily swap for 2 usable defender front stub axles that I'll happily machine down the inner as per my one to fit a std series swivel housing. I kind of stopped playing as the swivel ball I have is FUbar and seems pointless mocking up on a rubbish swivel. Wasn't impressed with a mates new britpart swivel ball so want to avoid them. There is also issues with kingpin being where the CV wants to be but I think I have this sussed and will be slightly stronger. I actualy have all the bits here now all new bits except the swivel balls. I was hoping to get to the shows this year but new baby means I've run out of time.

[missingsid]

How long ago did you get them?

I spoke to Nigel Barker, who was going up there to speak to Kevin about something else.....

Fisrt time was two years ago as I got the half shafts first before starting.

I told them why I wanted them and they only had three long sline shafts, two rear and one front.I bought all four shafts anyway.

Then in a conversation with them about something they said come and talk, went back and they showed me a new fourth long spline shaft. They told me that since my earlier conversation they had made the fourth shaft so they can sell Stage1 shafts where they will cut to size or sell as they are. They did explain that their distributor was not interested in selling them as they sre low volume.

TBH this is still some time ago as I took a year and a half off work and I've been back six months!

[jai_landrover]

Just won a pair of chrome balls. When they get here I will throw them in the lathe and get them machined ready for the CV's to fit with clearance.

Some lathe time ahead but will have something really strong and reliable when it's done and more importantly for my needs defender hubs and flanges to fit Rostyle rims without destroying them.