dangerous doug Posted June 23, 2016 Share Posted June 23, 2016 Hi all, I'm a bit of a legal/ financial/moral dilemma at the moment As some know I recently completed a megasquirted v8 conversion to a 110. After I had done everything I could I left it with a garage for them to MOT it and put it on the rolling road for a tune up The truck was sitting there for around a month as they were too busy to get to it and kept pushing the MOT date back. which is fine, it happens. They let me come in and use their yard to do a bit of work on it and when they had space they let me work inside Had a few failures on the MOT, bulbs and break lines. To keep cost down they gave me the bits and I did the work. And it got a pass When I came back to a soposedly tuned v8 a piece of paper was presented to me with the largest number being 125bhp. I asked if that was at the wheels. "No, thets calculated at the fly wheel" I then took the truck out for a test drive to find the most gutless piece of carp I have ever driven! I came back and said it was carp and all I got was "that's the best we can do with it, it's a very asthmatic engine" Bear in mind these are 170 ish from factory, it's got a free flowing exhaust and cotton air filter along with the Thor inlet Now obviously I'm not happy with that and convinced I had done nothing mechanically wrong I bought my self the tuner studioMS program as the map he had written had roughly half the values of the base map. That diddnt work so I installed a map Bowie had sent me, much better but still not right. Got the old Thor map from nige, still not right! sat back and looked at what else could be wrong which is where I looked at timing. I ignored his new timing marks and continued to advance it through tuner studio I'm at 13° extra advance so far but don't have time to keep at it. But it has totally changed the truck! It's still a bit flat in places but it's much much better! the reason for this post is last night I receved an email with an invoice attached to it. The bill of £890! Now I'm not one to normally argue the price on something, the price is the price. And I'm not disputing that work was done and parts were used but I sure as hell don't want to pay for work I had done when I've had to go over it again myself for a better result I do t want to be a dick about it as they have been good to me letting me use their space but at the same time I think that that's taking the tiddle! Can anyone advise on where I stand here? The way I see it I have 3 options 1. Agree to pay the £890 provided the car goes back on the rollers and is tuned properly(even then, that seems a lot of money) 2. Pay half as I say work had been done but not properly and make it clear I won't be coming back (we take out 3 cars there and my work van) 3. Let them take me to court I should also add thoughout the saga I was always asking for a price which they wouldn't give to me and nothing was agreed before hand. What can I do and where do I stand? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snagger Posted June 23, 2016 Share Posted June 23, 2016 Don't go for option 3 as it has plenty of negative long term implications for you and could see your costs rocket. I would point out that the work was unsatisfactory and that you had to rectify what they couldn't sort out, and that they misdiagnosed the poor performance, and then negotiate a price from there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ejparrott Posted June 23, 2016 Share Posted June 23, 2016 Yeah don't go with 3...not straight off anyway... Best bet is probably to go and talk to the manager, explain basically what you've just said, give him a chance to answer for his bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
landroversforever Posted June 23, 2016 Share Posted June 23, 2016 If it was me, I'd be going in to have a chat with them... see what they have to say. Yes they were helpful in letting you work on it there....but if they haven't managed to tune it correctly then they've not done what they were supposed to do. The issue you might come across is lack of knowledge about the RV8 or megasquirt.... Not everyone knows the ins and outs of the two systems. Are they familiar? When my friends kit car was set up with an after market ECU (can't remember which one it was now.... purple case), they commented on not liking Megasquirt. Later on when he and I swapped it over to Microsquirt (on my recommendation) it was worlds apart in performance after only a very brief (Literally.... it was about 15-20 miles) tuning session with Tunerstudio live mapping. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowie69 Posted June 23, 2016 Share Posted June 23, 2016 I think as you have identified a problem, the timing, go and point out that this should have been checked, properly, before any RR session, and clearly can't have been, i.e. the work wasn't done properly. See if they are willing to do it once you have confirmed TDC with a piston stop, made a new TDC pointer for your timing cover, and get MS set up with trim value so it points where it is supposed to. 'very asthmatic....' oh dear... you should be seeing 180 ATF from that really.... Be interested to see the plots? Also, nobbly tyres sap loads of power, if you have a set of 205s to go on, that will help you and they will love you for the decrease in noise. Have a chat, let them know you aren't happy, but no threats at this point, see what they are willing to offer As suggested before, I would happily road tune it down here, but bit of a distance! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AMB Posted June 23, 2016 Share Posted June 23, 2016 I'd suggest that, before you decide anything, that you go back, explain that you were not satisfied with either the output power after tune or the explanation. Even an asthmatic engine should do better than two thirds standard output. You've investigated, found a timing issue that they should have found, loaded a generic map and achieved a major improvement. Would they please put it back on the rolling road to confirm that there is a major improvement in power, which they should have been able to achieve. Keep it friendly, then give them some options - reduce the invoice to reflect the fact that the tune-up was not of acceptable standard and you had to perform additional work; do the job properly and reduce the invoice as a gesture of goodwill. If neither acceptable then make an offer against the £890, pay that amount with covering letter, pay someone else to check output on a rolling road and wait for the legal threats. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fatboy Posted June 23, 2016 Share Posted June 23, 2016 Doug, Before having a conversation, taking everything into account, see if you can figure out what value you would be happy to pay. If you can, estimate the costs in categories (pets, mechanic time, MOT, rolling road time etc) Then, during the conversation, it gives you a chance to make an offer and pay what you believe is a fair amount. You might even consider writing a letter to explain, and send them a cheque. Legally I think this prevents all sorts of "non payment" action and you may find the problem can be resolved to both parties satisfaction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dangerous doug Posted June 23, 2016 Author Share Posted June 23, 2016 Cheers for the response guys. They are a LINK ecu dealer and know megasquirt systems well(apparently). When I showed him the ecu and version he said " oh ms1, we'll sort that no problem". There is a triumph on the ramps they megasquirted and did engine work to and that 3.5(probably not any more) pushes 260bhp so I trusted what they said about the MS system and the RV8. The tyres are a valid point, they were noisy and that cobbled with a straight through exhaust probably wore a bit thin after a while. They are friendly people and approachable, I have no problem approaching them about it but I need to know where I stand first otherwise there is no point. This is the map they flashed to the ecu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowie69 Posted June 23, 2016 Share Posted June 23, 2016 What's the required fuel setting? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dangerous doug Posted June 23, 2016 Author Share Posted June 23, 2016 I forget the number.....I want to say 10? But it was left at the default of the previous map he edited, Niges map. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowie69 Posted June 23, 2016 Share Posted June 23, 2016 3.9/4.0, yes? Looks about 50% down on fuelling to me, across the map. With the timing a long way out, then any tune will be stuffed right up, and literally chucking fuel down the exhaust -I'm assuming it was retarded, as that much advance would likely leave you with no engine left Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zardos Posted June 23, 2016 Share Posted June 23, 2016 If you get to the point of them threatening legal action, you could also try offering to go to a mediation service first might be cheaper a list of mediation services at http://civilmediation.justice.gov.uk/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simonr Posted June 23, 2016 Share Posted June 23, 2016 Best option is to stay friendly with them. They have in part done you a good turn letting you use their space - so there is a cost to falling out with them. My guess would be they spent a long time on it, trying to figure it out - and just missed the obvious. Ended up blaming the engine and are just charging you for the time. I think if you tell them this story that you discovered the timing was out and that made it way better - but without trying to make them look dumb, it sets a good base for a negotiation or more services in kind as part of the deal. Si Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pat_pending Posted June 23, 2016 Share Posted June 23, 2016 How does the £890 break down? nearly £150 of that will be vat. If they gave you or they fitted parts you asked for, pay for them. If they did work there is no dispute over, the MOT for instance, pay for it. Once you have a figure for the disputed work you can negotiate a resolution, don't mix up your legal redress as a dissatisfied customer with whatever you or anyone on here feels they did wrong on a technical basis. Agree what they are going to do to correct the problem first, and then offer any help or advice to achieve that end. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dangerous doug Posted July 6, 2016 Author Share Posted July 6, 2016 Thank you all for the replies, and advice I sent an email to them putting all my concerns into writing and telling them I would come in for a chat. to my surprise I got a particularly snotty email back stating "we are a reputable garage and expect to be payed in full or there will be conciquences!" They also went on to say that after 9 weeks how can they guarentee any work that they have carried out........which from My point of view brings all their credibility into question if they can't guarentee the work they do for a reasonable amount of time. Also that they send me a ludicrous invoice after the period of soposed warranty runs out...... Anyway I don't respond to Well after being spoken To like that so I went in there expecting a full on argument but they seem to have lost their ballsy attitude somewhere between their keyboard and my email address. We sat down and had a chat they even agreed with me that they would t pay either, so I payed half the bill as a gesture of good will. They are happy to re assess the situation ie, cut the initial bill or retune on the rollers untill it's right after their race season is over and my gearbox is fixed which really I feel is the best possible outcome for all the parties involved Thanks again everyone I'll let you know he outcome 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
missingsid Posted July 6, 2016 Share Posted July 6, 2016 Glad there is an amicable outcome. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowie69 Posted July 6, 2016 Share Posted July 6, 2016 Yep, all good Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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