mcc1979ian Posted November 22, 2016 Share Posted November 22, 2016 Help!! My 90's taken a strange starting issue, most days it will start no probs then other days it struggles to caw over. Sometimes it feels like the battery's flat then after a second attempt it will fire up. Sometimes it can sit all week and start no probs. Other days you go to start it and the battery quickly dies. The battery was fitted new 4 months ago and has a high cca its a 1986 fitted with a 300tdi New starter fitted 3 month ago all earths are ok its worse when it's really cold last week we had a very frosty morning and it just plain refused to turn over. Quick jump and away it went. The original engine was a 2.5na and as far as I'm aware there's no starter relay or glow plug relay. All suggestions welcome Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tetsu0san Posted November 22, 2016 Share Posted November 22, 2016 I had a similar problem very recently on my 200tdi converted 110 and I was convinced it wasn't the battery. So I did all the things you've done already, as well as replacing the starter motor but the 'worse when cold' thing was still a niggle in the back of my mind. I even swapped it out for a known good battery I had in the shed but to no avail. Cutting a long story short, it was the battery. Seems the known good one in the shed wasn't good either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Smith Posted November 23, 2016 Share Posted November 23, 2016 My 1992 200Tdi has done this ever since I've owned it, so for well over ten years I have been chasing the fault around without pinning it down. It's fine for months on end, then starts behaving like the battery is flat, you can strip and clean earths and replace as many parts as you like and it makes no difference. Then suddenly one day it will spin over perfectly and behave itself for months on end again. I have concluded it's just a moody bitch and when it's misbehaving I try to park on a hill. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Les Henson Posted November 23, 2016 Share Posted November 23, 2016 Sticky starter motor brushes will cause these symptoms - even a relatively new one. Also a new battery can be faulty. Usually if a jump start ALWAYS works, then I would suspect starter motor. Starter motors typically have 4 rotor brushes, and the failure of one or two gives you what is commonly known as a lazy starter. A jump start typically gives a lot more amps and that then allows 2 or 3 brushes to crank the engine over sufficiently to start it. This sort of thing is very difficult to diagnose and usually requires replacement of the suspect component. Do you know the make of the starter motor and battery? Les 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcc1979ian Posted December 5, 2016 Author Share Posted December 5, 2016 Not sure of the starter but i know it defo wasnt britpart or bearmach. batterys an 096 yausa but im started to think its too low in cca as last week i parked it in the yard at work at 10am Sunday and went away til 7:30pm friday and it started first turn of the key. The weather was mild last week up my way. Had her out yesterday and when i went to it at 8am today it was a hard frost and -4°c outside and it just refused to start. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Les Henson Posted December 6, 2016 Share Posted December 6, 2016 Yuasa batteries are good. The quality of the starter is not where you got it from, but what make it is. Les. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SPendrey Posted December 6, 2016 Share Posted December 6, 2016 This really makes a difference on my Disco... although I often forget to do it. Image taken from owners' manual. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowie69 Posted December 6, 2016 Share Posted December 6, 2016 Surely only on a petrol? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orgasmic Farmer Posted December 6, 2016 Share Posted December 6, 2016 Do a drop test (google it) to test the quality of the cabling/earths to the starter. I had almost identical symptoms, ongoing for 4 years. New batteries, new starters, new earths etc. Always just about good enough to not worry too much about it. It only failed to start twice in that 2 year period but would play up maybe 8 times out of 10. Was always a little sluggish too. Eventually did the drop test and found it was losing 1.5V on both the + & - cables, so only about 9V getting to starter. I invested (talking £60+) in enough 70mm quality cable to run new + & - cable direct from the battery terminals to the starter/starter mounting bolt (thus by-passing the chassis as an earth strap!). All new terminals properly crimped and soldered. That was about 6 months ago and it has been perfect ever since. Starter flies over and starts in a fraction of a second, all weathers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SPendrey Posted December 6, 2016 Share Posted December 6, 2016 2 hours ago, Bowie69 said: Surely only on a petrol? Nope. Makes starting my car much easier when properly cold. Full page shown... ...mind you, I don't do the switching off procedure. Never noticed that before! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peaklander Posted December 6, 2016 Share Posted December 6, 2016 Letting the turbo cool down a little after sustained higher level revs is something mentioned fairly often in Honest John's advice column in the Telegraph Motors column. It apparently reduces chances of cooking the bearing when oil stops flowing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowie69 Posted December 7, 2016 Share Posted December 7, 2016 Yup very common advice, imagine turbo at a few hundred C and then stop the cooling oil flow, while the turbo is still doing 100,000rpm... Then let the oil cook for a few minutes at that temp into a sticky black mess, restart and repeat... A nice build up will appear after a while, starving your turbo of oil... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveG Posted December 7, 2016 Share Posted December 7, 2016 As it only happens when it's cold, have you also checked that the glow plugs are working ok? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcc1979ian Posted December 7, 2016 Author Share Posted December 7, 2016 Im actually thinking the glow plugs dont work at all. The original engine was a 2.5na and the same wirings fitted to the 300tdi but theres no glow plug relay in the system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tetsu0san Posted December 7, 2016 Share Posted December 7, 2016 Does the engine turn over slower than when it's cold as opposed to when it's a warm day? Last year when I was having these issues when the weather is cold I decided to finally wire up my glow plugs and it made no difference at all. My engine had never needed them in the Discovery I pulled it out of and they weren't even wired up in the 110 but I thought as the engine was getting older that it might need them. Again, battery was the culprit and I still don't need the plugs, even in that very cold snap we had earlier this week. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
honitonhobbit Posted December 7, 2016 Share Posted December 7, 2016 Glow-plugs in a Tdi are not critical. Worth noting that starters decline in efficacy every time they are used Also worth noting that if you are starting in cold - depress the clutch. To warm up the box as well as the lump, nock the T box into neutral and slot the main box into 4th, then let it idle for a while or two Batteries slow discharge in the cold. One of the reasons you never store a battery on a concrete or stone floor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peaklander Posted December 7, 2016 Share Posted December 7, 2016 1 hour ago, honitonhobbit said: Worth noting that starters decline in efficacy every time they are used Hi Hobbit, can you expand on this a little? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
honitonhobbit Posted December 7, 2016 Share Posted December 7, 2016 brushes decline in efficacy every time they are used - little teeny weeny bits each time. Cheap starters fade quicker Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peaklander Posted December 7, 2016 Share Posted December 7, 2016 ok - teeny weeny but it still a degradation over a long time Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
honitonhobbit Posted December 7, 2016 Share Posted December 7, 2016 Yup - cheaper the starter, less the teeny weeny 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jason110 Posted December 8, 2016 Share Posted December 8, 2016 I know you have said earths are ok, but my brothers conversion had similar issues. Turned out the earth from engine block to chassis was bolted to the water pump and chassis. Moved that one to the starter motor mounting and moved the earth from the battery closer to the starter earth. Starts no trouble now. Rarely use the glow plugs, they are wired into a relay circuit separate from the key. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcc1979ian Posted December 8, 2016 Author Share Posted December 8, 2016 Earths are definetly ok. They were all cleaned and checked a wee while ago when i had an indicator issue. Its just very cold/frosty mornings it seems to be refusing to start. Im still thinking either battery or glow plugs. Hopefully i get a weekend off work this week and i can get some time on it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peaklander Posted December 8, 2016 Share Posted December 8, 2016 You said that a jump started it. If a jump always works then it can't be the glow plugs but could be the battery or the earth. Which it is depends on where you connect the -ve jump lead. If it is onto the vehicle battery then you are using the earth connection from that. If it direct to some metal then you are creating a new earth path. That should help point to either battery or earth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orgasmic Farmer Posted December 8, 2016 Share Posted December 8, 2016 You say the earths are OK. Mine were also perfect. Have you done a drop test yet? I bet there is some internal breakdown in some of the cables resulting in increased resistance and a drop in current/voltage to the starter. It doesn't need to be much to result in all the symptoms you describe. A quick test is to stick a known good battery in the engine bay and use a pair of jump leads to (carefully) connect direct to the starter. If it sounds better/starts quicker then you have found your problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcc1979ian Posted December 8, 2016 Author Share Posted December 8, 2016 Never got round to it yet as I'm away with work all week then when I do eventually get home for a day iv a list of jobs to do. Will try and get round to it during my Xmas holidays. When I say jump I'm not actually connecting jump leads, I just give it a quick tug. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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