sand tyres ?

[trickydicky]

hi all me and the wife are considering traveling around morocco next year and iv been wondering about tyres .has anybody done this trip and what type of tyres did you use ? it should be sand and rock driving I think. has anybody got any advice about the trip that may be useful ill be driving a well maintained 200tdi 90 if this helps . this is the setup so far I wont be taking the awning side room its a pain to set up but I will take the awning.

 

Edited May 19, 2018 by trickydicky
missed a bit off the end

[RedLineMike]

friend went to morroco several times with his 110 which was fully loaded, ran on General Grabber AT2 tyres & they worked very well in the sand apparently 

[trickydicky]

ye I was thinking something like that .the gent I brought the roof tent from had road tyres on and he said the only problems he had was bellying out on the dunes {he was in a disco 3 ) I know its not the same but I recently went camping in the dunes at shell island and noticed my narrower military tyres left much deeper ruts than my mates wider tyres 

Edited May 19, 2018 by trickydicky
missed a bit off the end

[qwakers]

ive used insa turbo dakars in several different enviroments including rocky and sandy. they performed very well.

[Ex Member]

90% of sand is tyre pressure.  Larger tyres allow for lower pressures.

More aggressive tyres do a little better, but they eat more power in the process and make it easier to dig yourself in, if you are not careful.  A lot of guys would run near bald tyres for that reason.

Wider versus taller eats more power.

Really tyre pressure is the main thing.  Carry a good air compressor.  Lower the pressures as much as needed, when needed.  Check the tyre temperatures with your hand frequently.

[FridgeFreezer]

What I've heard (and it makes sense) is that aggressive muds are a poor idea as they will break the surface & dig holes, whereas milder AT or even road tyres will sit on top.

[Chicken Drumstick]

Fat wider tyres will work better on sand. AT’s or milder MT’s   

[trickydicky]

looks like ill most likely go for a wider all terrain and a good compressor

[trickydicky]

now I need to figure out some toilet options for the wife . any ideas? 

[qwakers]

bumper dumper, top gear style

[garrycol]

You just need a good All Terrain Tyre (AT) which will provide an adequate tread for most for sand.rock and the road.  It should also be a light truck tyre which has a thicker sidewall to provide better sidewall protection for when airing down is needed - will help prevent staking of the sidewalls and cuts from stones.

Suitable tyres would BFG AT KOs (LT) or Bridgestone Desert Dueller 697 AT LT.

Obviously need spares, repair kits, air compressor etc

 

 

[Eightpot]

For sand driving you need taller, thinner tyres, not wide tyres. 

235/85 and 7.50/16 are great.  When aired down they maker a longer footprint which is what gives traction.  Wide aggressive tyres do not give the same footprint, but they do increase the likelihood of the tyre coming off the rim when cornering in sand at low pressure. 

Blocky treads dig down in the sand and give noticeably more drag. 

The ideal tyre for sand is a tall thin, smooth tyre with not too many sidewall plies.  There is a lot of stoney ground in Morocco, so there's a bit of a compromise to make,  but if you get either 235 or 7.50 road bias or AT tyres you'll be fine. 

If you want to play on the dunes in the south, try and keep the weight down, make sure your cooling system is tip top, and have everything lashed down securely.

[Eightpot]

On Saturday, May 19, 2018 at 5:51 PM, trickydicky said:

now I need to figure out some toilet options for the wife . any ideas? 

If you're camping at a site or auberge you'll be fine,  if you're going to wild camp get yourself a little shovel and find a bush.. 

 

[Chicken Drumstick]

5 hours ago, Eightpot said:

For sand driving you need taller, thinner tyres, not wide tyres. 

235/85 and 7.50/16 are great.  When aired down they maker a longer footprint which is what gives traction.  Wide aggressive tyres do not give the same footprint, but they do increase the likelihood of the tyre coming off the rim when cornering in sand at low pressure. 

Blocky treads dig down in the sand and give noticeably more drag. 

The ideal tyre for sand is a tall thin, smooth tyre with not too many sidewall plies.  There is a lot of stoney ground in Morocco, so there's a bit of a compromise to make,  but if you get either 235 or 7.50 road bias or AT tyres you'll be fine. 

If you want to play on the dunes in the south, try and keep the weight down, make sure your cooling system is tip top, and have everything lashed down securely.

I can’t see 7.50’s being a good sand tyre size. Airing down a wider tyre will also give a longer footprint exactly the same as a narrow tyre does. 

And there should be no additional risk of the tyre coming off the rim. Arguably tall narrow tyres will have more tyre roll so probably more likely to come off the bead. 

A simple Google for “sand tires” shows fat wide tyres often with paddles.

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=sand+tires&rlz=1CDGOYI_enGB590GB590&hl=en-GB&prmd=sivn&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjBiOroipfbAhXLCsAKHVeBA1kQ_AUIEigC&biw=414&bih=660

on soft deep sand you don’t want to be digging in you want a degree of floatation.

 

[Bowie69]

Andrew White gave a pretty good explanation as to why narrow tyres work on soft sand, today, on YouTube, 4xOverland I think is the user name. He's not perfect, but has done a lot of expedition sand driving.

 

[Eightpot]

1 hour ago, Chicken Drumstick said:

I can’t see 7.50’s being a good sand tyre size. Airing down a wider tyre will also give a longer footprint exactly the same as a narrow tyre does. 

And there should be no additional risk of the tyre coming off the rim. Arguably tall narrow tyres will have more tyre roll so probably more likely to come off the bead. 

A simple Google for “sand tires” shows fat wide tyres often with paddles.

 

 

A 7.50x16 will give a longer contact patch than a 265/75 when aired down. The extra height of the sidewall and reduced rigidity of the tyre carcass lets it deform more.    

Yes you can opt for lunar lander style ballon tyres or Baja paddles, but thats not so practical on the drive down through Spain,  also it's not entirely down to the contact area - the length is more important than the width, so traction is achieved more like a tank track. 

[Snagger]

I live in Dubai and a lot of my colleagues go duning frequently.  They all go for 255s on Defenders, and all for ATs or sand tyres.  Do NOT go for MTs; they're too aggressive and dig you in.  Look at the tyres the SAS Pinkies had and they're like aircraft tyres - no blocks, just circumferential grooves and a round profile rather than square.   A lot of locals with money still run that style of tyre here on their Patrols and Land Cruisers for the desert.  The guys with big knobbly tyres and suspension lifts are new expats with too much money and no experience. 

As for the comments about tall, thin tyres being better, that is completely wrong - they screw up the gearing as well as having more contact area, so sap power enormously.  You also don't want to go tall if on dunes as you'll roll over on side slopes far more easily, already an easy thing to do.  Wide tyres help you avoid sinking on soft sand, especially if the pressure is reduced, and do so far better than tall tyres.

Tyre pressure is key, and the comment about getting a decent pump is spot on.  Some guys here have one fitted inside the car (to prevent sand and dust ingress) with plumbed lines to quick release fittings near each wheel for the flexible line.  That's a nice mod if you're going to do a lot of pressure changes.  As said, keep checking the temperatures and reinflate as soon as possible as running soft tyres generates a lot of heat and causes the tyres to delaminate or shed the tread.  That happens frequently here when people drive too fast for too long at low pressure.

The other thing that prevents bogging in is momentum.  Automatic transmissions make it far easier, but as long as you choose a sensible gear and keep going, a manual works.  What you can't do is change gear on a manual in soft sand .

 

[Eightpot]

Sorry but that's nonsense!   We're discussing standard Land Rover tyre sizes here,  so how does that screw up gearing??

And your argument is that taller tyres are worse because they have a larger contact area?!  That's what stops you getting stuck...  and running 235 tyres is not going to make you roll over on a dune - what makes you roll over on a dune is traversing a dune sideways which you must never do.

Anyway I've pitched in my tuppence worth, best to learn through experience anyway - I can't compete with what people have seen on google or what someones mate uses!  I've only been round Morocco a few times.    And the Sahara, and the Namib, and the Nubian desert, and the Western desert, Skeleton coast and the Jordanian desert, and the Sinai desert, the Jordanian & Syrian deserts, Ubari Sand Sea, Kalahari, Syrian desert,  White desert and a couple of others I've forgotten...

 

[Chicken Drumstick]

1 hour ago, Eightpot said:

A 7.50x16 will give a longer contact patch than a 265/75 when aired down. The extra height of the sidewall and reduced rigidity of the tyre carcass lets it deform more.    

Yes you can opt for lunar lander style ballon tyres or Baja paddles, but thats not so practical on the drive down through Spain,  also it's not entirely down to the contact area - the length is more important than the width, so traction is achieved more like a tank track. 

Sidewall rigidity will depend on the make/model of tyre more than the size. And the compound. 

A 285/75 will have a longer and wider footprint aired down than a 7.50

[Chicken Drumstick]

3 minutes ago, Eightpot said:

Sorry but that's nonsense!   We're discussing standard Land Rover tyre sizes here,  so how does that screw up gearing??

And your argument is that taller tyres are worse because they have a larger contact area?!  That's what stops you getting stuck...  and running 235 tyres is not going to make you roll over on a dune - what makes you roll over on a dune is traversing a dune sideways which you must never do.

Anyway I've pitched in my tuppence worth, best to learn through experience anyway - I can't compete with what people have seen on google or what someones mate uses!  I've only been round Morocco a few times.    And the Sahara, and the Namib, and the Nubian desert, and the Western desert, Skeleton coast and the Jordanian desert, and the Sinai desert, the Jordanian & Syrian deserts, Ubari Sand Sea, Kalahari, Syrian desert,  White desert and a couple of others I've forgotten...

 

Well with all you experience. Could you point me to a reference or some example vehicles where narrow tall tyres are the choice for sand driving?

I’m a little devoid of dunes local to me. But I live in a part of the UK with lots of different soil types locally. I typically run 7.00 or 7.50 tyres as they dig in deep due to being narrow. This was evident in the field only a handful of weeks back when it was later logged. My lighter 88 on 7.00’s left fat more pronounced and deeper tracks than my brothers heavier 90 running 31.10.50’s 

 

We do have some sand soil nearby too and a number of sand quarry’s. Conversely having driven narrow tyres at those locations they generally perform badly digging in too easily and sinking far more rapidly. The wider tyres we have generally have perform much better on the sand. 

[Eightpot]

So you're recommending the Op goes and buys 285/75 tyres for his holiday then? 

[Bowie69]

Andrew White in the YouTube video I mentioned, does say almost exactly what eightpot is saying, and explains why it is better to have a narrower tyre.

You cannot compare 70 year old tyre design where you couldn't air them down, as you were running tubes, to modern tubeless tyres, completely different kettle of fish.

[Eightpot]

5 minutes ago, Chicken Drumstick said:

Well with all you experience. Could you point me to a reference or some example vehicles where narrow tall tyres are the choice for sand driving?

I’m a little devoid of dunes local to me. But I live in a part of the UK with lots of different soil types locally. I typically run 7.00 or 7.50 tyres as they dig in deep due to being narrow. This was evident in the field only a handful of weeks back when it was later logged. My lighter 88 on 7.00’s left fat more pronounced and deeper tracks than my brothers heavier 90 running 31.10.50’s 

 

We do have some sand soil nearby too and a number of sand quarry’s. Conversely having driven narrow tyres at those locations they generally perform badly digging in too easily and sinking far more rapidly. The wider tyres we have generally have perform much better on the sand. 

I'll check my databanks later  

Yeah i wouldn't go as thin as 7.00 - that's not too practical, and were discussing kitting a 90 with roof tent/awning and a couple of weeks worth of clothes and camp equipment to Morocco, so that's not going to be ideal.   7.00s on a series with a canvas roof and nothing in would be fine though, and aired down correctly will whizz all over dunes with no problem.

Air pressure is the key - on soft sand you need to air down as low as 10psi, which you wouldnt typically do on a green lane in the UK as you'll probably come off the rim or ground the axles out on the centre ridge of the track.

also bone dry African sand behaves differently to damp UK sandy soil - not the same thing at all.

[Chicken Drumstick]

22 minutes ago, Eightpot said:

So you're recommending the Op goes and buys 285/75 tyres for his holiday then? 

Maybe. Maybe not. 

[Chicken Drumstick]

19 minutes ago, Bowie69 said:

Andrew White in the YouTube video I mentioned, does say almost exactly what eightpot is saying, and explains why it is better to have a narrower tyre.

You cannot compare 70 year old tyre design where you couldn't air them down, as you were running tubes, to modern tubeless tyres, completely different kettle of fish.

Do you have any links for the YouTube video? Bit of a mine field as I don’t know what I’m looking for. Ta. 

Also not sure if your last paragraph is aimed at me or not. I don’t know what 70 year old tyre designs you are referring too. Nor how you can’t air down with tubes??