2.5TD engine into Series 3

[noelmorgan24@hotmail.com]

Looking advise. I have aquired a 1971 Series  3 88" with no engine or gearbox. I have a rebuilt Defender 2.5 TD engine and gearbox that I was hoping to fit into series 3. Any advice, recommendations, conversions kits etc. Chassis is a galvanised Richards one for probably a 2.25 petrol as that is what it was origionally.

[Chicken Drumstick]

What engine specifically do you have? The 2.5TD was never fitted to a Defender only a Ninety/One Ten. The 200 and 300 Tdi's were used in Defenders, albeit also with 2.5 litres displacement.

The 2.5 TD is a non intercooled version of the 2.5NaD engine. It sometimes gets a bad rap online, but is actually pretty decent. It won't win any drag races, but can amble along just fine. And is actually smoother and more refined than the latter 200 and 300 Tdi's.

It would also be a straight forward swap into a Series.

The Tdi's are more heavily revised versions of the same engine with a lot more changes. The 200Tdi will also fit straight in, but the 300Tdi is quite a lot of work.

In terms of gearboxes, A Series should use an LT-76 4 speed unit. I would recommend sticking with this. The LT-77 (found on the 2.5TD and 200) and R380 (300Tdi) are 5 speed boxes. These can be made to work, but will require a lot of additional work and R&D. They are much longer and will need new mounts and rear prop. Also they arguably take away from the charm of driving a Series.

Do you have a transfer box too? The transfer box found with the 5 speed boxes is designed for full time AWD, but the Series front axle isn't. So you would need to solve this. Lots of routes, either convert the transfer box to 2wd for road use or look at some CV and/or axle upgrades.

 

Info here:

https://www.steveparkers.com/conversions/

 

And here:

https://www.ashcroft-transmissions.co.uk/the-series-vehicle.html

[FridgeFreezer]

3 hours ago, Chicken Drumstick said:

The transfer box found with the 5 speed boxes is designed for full time AWD, but the Series front axle isn't. So you would need to solve this. Lots of routes, either convert the transfer box to 2wd for road use or look at some CV and/or axle upgrades.

Doing nothing is also an option, it's not critical. I believe @Jon White runs full-time 4x4 on Series axles with no problem.

[Chicken Drumstick]

2 minutes ago, FridgeFreezer said:

Doing nothing is also an option, it's not critical. I believe @Jon White runs full-time 4x4 on Series axles with no problem.

I've heard and read mixed views on it. I suspect short term would be fine, I guess the sticking point would be 'if' something went wrong while on the public roads at speed.

[FridgeFreezer]

44 minutes ago, Chicken Drumstick said:

I've heard and read mixed views on it. I suspect short term would be fine, I guess the sticking point would be 'if' something went wrong while on the public roads at speed.

I don't really see how that's any more relevant than any other part of a modified vehicle failing? Tonnes of stuff has UJ's in the front, it's not any more or less safe, just that CV's give smoother feel through the steering.

[lo-fi]

I have some "friendly banter" with a couple of mates running full time 4wd and swear "it's fine mate, you don't know what you're talking about", who've recently been eating humble pie as they've started going through UJ's, swivel bearings and drive flanges and when the odd half shaft at a rate of knots. One has admitted defeat and is going back to the series box (though why he doesn't just convert the LT230 to part time escapes me), the other is still trying to blame everything but what's staring him in the face. I don't really see it as a safety issue, more of an engineering one, and I don't (personally) like the full-lock behaviour. 

To look at it another way: Land Rover never changed anything unless it was absolutely necessary. That would have cost money (evidence essentially the same cruddy Rover diff from S1 to latest defender). If they thought they could get away with full time 4wd on a UJ front axle on the Stage 1, I have no doubt they would have. 

Five speed, even on the early short bellhousing LT77 is also a tight fit in an 88. You've also got the front prop to bellhousing crossmember clearance issue, which is tricky to solve if you don't want to cut your galv chassis. 

The bright side for the series box is the indirect injection on the 2.5TD gives comparatively smooth running vs the later 200/300tdi and I'd expect it to last very well. Its an easy fit too. 

[Snagger]

The first piece of advice I’d give is don’t bother with that engine.  Even rebuilt, it won’t be long until you have head or piston cracks.  It performs well in a Series vehicle, and is smoother and quieter than a Tdi, but doesn’t have the reliability or fuel economy and just isn’t worth the effort of fitting.  A 12J is a better choice if you don’t need performance as it’s simpler and more reliable, and burns a little less than the 19J, but if you are going to change the original engine to a later LR diesel, the Tdi is the most sensible option.

[Chicken Drumstick]

Not sure I'd agree with the reliability thing. We have two on the farm that have covered about 500,000 miles+ between them. Only a snapped cam belt between them as the only issue. Which only bent a few pushrods. Both run great.

My brother had one on 140,000 miles which was fine too, at least until I flooded it in a huge muddy water hole...... but can't really blame the engine for that.

I agree they aren't as frugal as a Tdi, but still pretty good.

[Jon White]

On 9/26/2019 at 4:56 PM, FridgeFreezer said:

Doing nothing is also an option, it's not critical. I believe @Jon White runs full-time 4x4 on Series axles with no problem.

Yes. Ran them for more than ten years. No issues other than slight click back through the steering on full lock, which I can easily live with.

i have now converted to CVs and custom HD shafts, but only for reasons of shaft strength. No series shafts stand up to 35” tyres and diff lockers.

[Arjan]

It really is up to you..

Technically,  fitting a 2.5 N/A, 2.5 DT, 200 / 300 (with or without the Tdi bits) all go in.

The LT77 is not the easiest of fitments in an 88"but doable if you don't mint cutting the chassis.

Personally, either go for 2.5 N/A or a 200/300 Tdi and original Series box.

Depending of your drive style, it works quite well.

Bon Courage !

[Gazzar]

I agree, the engine swap is, well, straightforward, the gearbox, isn't.

 

[hario']

Hello, off the back of this interesting thread, just wondering if I can pick the thread of knowledge here on what might be the best scope options for fitting a 200tdi/LT77 into an 88;

After first clarifying some aspects;

Prop length mods are fine, I know a balancing guy. I'm fitting coil axles reworked with leaf saddles so full time 4x4 if I use the LT230. Don't need an ear full about originality and VOSA points lol.

This is a planning engineering exercise for the S2 I'm buying my dad for this xmas (P.s. aren't I nice lol).

So;

1. 200tdi on factory engine mounts, then LT77/LT230 with brackets to pick up the factory mounts - Would LT230 drive outputs be in a good position for good prop lengths? IE not too short? I can scallop the cross member to clear if required. And are brackets on factory gearbox mounts ok for alignment of the transmission? (Assume the thickness of the bracket plate at least would put the assembly out of square?).

2. Factory propshafts retained, then 'working backwards' with custom LT230/LT77/200tdi mounts - Seems like more work than having props modded to suit?

3. Factory engine mount position, and weld on brackets for LT77/LT230? Bolt on fabrications would be 'nicer' and more my way of working.

4. If the gear lever position appears further back on the LT77, I can loose the centre seat if that's where the 'stick pokes out'.

5. I will probably use the Ashcroft LT77 to Series transfer box adaptor kit to prevent my dad loosing his marbles should he find the yellow/red knobs not present...

6. Thinking about it, can I move the engine/box mounts forward to keep stock props, and also give me a standard-ish gearlever position? If so does the 200tdi/LT77 fit behind a series front grille? This might be the best bet.. Can we buy weld-in engine/box mounts, or is cut & reweld fairly straight forward ie don't loose too much metal.

Further clarifications; The chassis is not galv, I like a challenge, I'm new to this forum but a previous S3 owner and have about 2 decades of LRO mags lol. Oh and mother will be wanting to drive it, hence most of the above refinements will need to happen..

Also note I will be doing this in a barn, (which I built), in a field, in rural France, between Bordeaux / Bergerac, at my parents house.. Told you I like a challenge.

Beers!

NB; Many edits due to chatting a fair volume of nonsense upon proof reading...

HH

Edited March 10, 2020 by hario'

[Chicken Drumstick]

Personally. You’d be better off buying a 90. You are loosing pretty much everything that makes it a Series. Which begs the question that the only reason you are doing it this way is for MoT/Road Tax exemption?
 

Tdi in a Series is loud and refined. Have done it once and I loved the vehicle. But I’d go V8 next time. Unless you are doing 12,000 miles a year every year. The fuel difference is unlikely to be an issue. Especially when factoring the costs of the work you are planning on. 

[FridgeFreezer]

What Mr Drumstick said - you'll be ruining a serviceable Series when what you want is a 90, if you want to be cute just graft a Series front grille onto it no-one will know.

Also if you're doing it in France you may struggle with legality - @Arjan might know the rules.

[Gazzar]

The above comments are true, especially if you have an original series, which would be worth more unmolested.

But, your plan is viable. All of your options have been done, I'm sure.

Don't worry too much about engine mounts, but bear in mind the chassis shape might mean there's no place to weld a mount up front.

You can always make an engine side mounting that extends forward, or backward, to pick up on the chassis mounting.

But, buy a 90. It's easier and better, and will keep its value.

[hario']

Thanks! But I want a leafer Series, with recessed headlights, and operational yellow/red knobs, and it needs to be slow and noisy and uncomfortable, I thought that was the point? LOL

No, I note all comments with thanks, and it can all be reversed, besides, I like re-powering old stuff with slightly better also old stuff, which is slightly newer.

Maybe I'll just find a re-powered example (200tdi or similar), fit 2.5NA inlet manifold to give the engine a more period look, rebuild the standard box, and fit coiler axles. I just really want to fit modified coiler axles to something you guys. 

Besides, there's not much to do in rural France! Last time I was there I was so bored I built this garage from oak trees in the garden ( Built to fit 88 Series in ] ;

 

[Gazzar]

Yea, you forgot the roof.

[Arjan]

Please - we need more pics of said barn...

 

I hope you realize you're going into a grey area changing engines in France.

They're a bit different here.

Bon Courage !

[Snagger]

If you’re determined to use an LT77 coupled to the original transfer box, then check on the availability of adapters first.  I think Ashcroft resumed making them, but I’m not sure.  It’ll need to be a long-stick, short pinion unit from a Defender or earlier 90/110, not from a Discovery or RRC.

The box is longer than the Series unit, and you also have the adaptor thickness.  It’s a difference of about 10cm/4”.  In a 109, you’d have the space to move the transmission and use custom prop shafts, but on an 88, that is likely to lead to long term rear prop problems from it being too short and having large UJ deflection angles.  
 

A 200Tdi would fit the Series chassis mounts ONLY IF it’s a Discovery/RRC engine and you use all the mountings and engine brackets from the Series engine.  If it’s a Defender engine, the right side engine mounting will need removal and a new bracket fabricated and welded to the chassis.  However, since the engine is going to move forwards, this point is moot.  I’m not sure if there enough room behind the front cross member to move the engine the full 100mm, or whether you’ll have to move the transmission aft a bit too, but the pulley protrusion is greater on Tdis than Series engines, so factor that in while measuring up.

The radiator and oil cooler will have to sit further forward to clear the engine, which means above the cross member.  That prevents siting any intercooler (assuming you retain it) beside the radiator unless you fit them all well ahead of the steering, which would require a different front panel and bonnet.  Not the look you want.  You may be able to use a different intercooler ahead of the radiator, like from a TD5.  It’ll be a tight squeeze behind a standard front panel, especially with headlights there, but could be done.  I’d consider omitting the intercooler and turning down the fuel boost a little to make life a lot easier - you’ll loose a small amount of performance and efficiency, but not much and the vehicle will still be sprightly.

[hario']

On 3/13/2020 at 7:30 AM, Arjan said:

Please - we need more pics of said barn...

Bon Courage !

Build thread;

https://forum.retro-rides.org/thread/202537/garage-build-which-looks-thread?page=1

I'll be updating it with a 'roofing' post if the Corona doesn't cancel my flights in April!

Merci et à Votre Santé!

HH

[Arjan]

Very Nice - thanks !!!

[hario']

  

On 3/15/2020 at 9:05 AM, Snagger said:

If you’re determined to use an LT77 coupled to etc..

LT77 length etc

A 200Tdi on disco mounts etc

Rad plumbing etc

Nick, thanks! As always. 

Sorry if this is becoming a tangent but with related content and good spirit, hopefully I'm still 'contributing' to the thread knowledge base, therefore could I ask for a couple of clarifications on your post?;

Disco and Defender 200tdi's - Do you mean they have different castings? As in the blocks are different? As I can reconfigure manifolds & chop/change ancillaries to suit chassis clearance, but you say I need a Disco specific 200tdi to suit standard series mounts? (Which is my plan  btw, to use standard series mounts & engine position) I understand I will want Defender manifolds for the turbo to clear the chassis.

I am determined to install LT77/LT230, bolted to 200tdi, with the engine on Series factory mounts, and then use these '90/110 LT77 mounts' per attached picture to hang the boxes? With crush tubes let into the chassis & through bolt. Seems like the most elegant solution to me.. (also lends itself to fitting all the coolers in a headlights in grille config).

I have some ideas to resolve the rear prop length issue & front xmember to prop clearance.

Really hope I get the yes these mounts are a good idea..

Beers & cheers!

HH

 

[western]

The 2 variants of 200Tdi use the same engine block & cylinder head, the differences are timing case, manifolds,turbo, exhaust downpipe.PAS/Alternator bracket.

[Gazzar]

Specifically, the defender timing case is a LOT lower on the engine side, and so, hits the chassis rail. The disco case is much higher.

Conversely, the defender exhaust manifold is much higher on the engine than the disco, as you know.

It works well.

 

[Snagger]

Hario, the guys’ comments above are the crux of it.  The block, head, internals and even the injection system are the same on both versions of the 200Tdi.  The difference is the timing casing on the front: the Defender version uses the same timing case pattern as the 12J and 19J (2.5NAD and 2.5TD predecessors), which mounts the injection pump quite low down and in the space occupied by the right side engine mounting bracket of the Series engines.  The Discovery version has a timing case that more closely resembles the later 300Tdi with a flat top that mounts the injection pump safely above the Series engine bracket.

Unfortunately, because nothing can ever be easy on Land Rovers, the manifold and turbo are different on the two versions as well, and the Discovery version doesn’t fit the Series vehicle without some work.  You can shoehorn the Discovery system into an 88” if you rotate the compressor housing to reorientate the outlet, which is done by loosening the big circlip that holds it to the compressor core, but it also needs the waste gate actuator moving, which entails accurate drilling and tapping of two new bolt holes in the casing.  No big deal if you’re good with tools.  However, it just won’t fit on a 109” as the chassis shape is different.  Defender manifold and turbo can be swapped onto the Discovery engine very easily, but they’re rare (because it was such a common conversion), so finding a set is hard.  Many use 300Tdi manifolds and turbo instead, which seems to work well.

The front end dressing of the engines are also very different, with the Discovery version having a big aluminium cradle to mount the PAS pump and alternator, and the water pump is in a location that prevents the use of the engine driven fan.  You have to use an electric fan with the Discovery engine.  The cradle gets in the way of the air plumbing, so it’s best removed, with a Series alternator bracket on long bolts and a spacer to bring the alternator pulley in line with the crank and water pump pulleys.  Gary used a nice fabricated spacer and shows this in his Lightweight rebuild thread.  I just used stacks of large washers, which is less elegant but just as secure.

The engines also have different flywheel housings, the Defender version just needing tow studs moving , while the Discovery version needs several moving to the blind holes (they’ll need threads tapping on do it). That does leave the four long bolts that go through the lower bellhousing and all the way into the ladder frame between sump and  block.  The best thing to do there is use caphead bolts (Allen key heads) and mark the positions accurately on the bellhousing to drill holes for the heads to sit in, a bit like dowels, so the bell housing and flywheel housing can join up and also so the bolts can be removed without taking the gear box off (access to oil pump or crank bearings) - don’t do as I initially did and countersink the bolts into the flywheelhousing and cover their heads with an undrilled bell housing - you’ll regret that later!

You can see the whole engine rebuild, installation and later bell housing mod on my blog (engine section).  Click my signature below.