Automatically different! AJ16???

[Blanco]

My 1980 RRC 2door was already modded with a D1 drivetrain (300tdi manual) when I got it, but I am finding the clutch tough to manage for more than a few miles and I am missing the auto and cruise of the P38 (which is still SORN'ed for the pandemic). I have been watching the BMW conversions with interest and was thinking that the 3.0i M54 engine  and auto box would be an easy enough fit with the groundwork that has now been done on these conversions. Now that my mileage is much reduced I would prefer the refinement of a petrol engine anyway. (yes I know, but somehow I just never bonded with V8's, its nearly 40 years since my first and 18 since my last, and they still don't appeal).

So  anyway I have been scouting around for cheap low mileage BM's, the main problem being that there aren't that many of the larger engine ones over here due to car tax, and only the 3.0 can match the tdi for torque, which is important for towing. Obviously travelling to get one at the moment could be tricky.

I just came across THIS last night, which looks as if it should be cheap enough and set me pondering, .... will it fit? I have tried to check it out a bit, but Wiki doesn't have the depth of info on it that it has for the BMW engines, the attraction would be the fact that it's British and classic and offers a decent uplift in torque over the BM. The potential downside being that it looks as if it might be quite long and therefore tricky to squeeze in. 

I had it in mind that Steve Parker or someone of that ilk used to do XK6 engine conversions for the series but I haven't turned up anything on the net.  How big is an AJ16 engine? does anyone know? Weight wise I can't imagine there would be a problem,  and it comes mated to a ZF 4hp24, so the other attraction is that it might be possible to juggle some D2 V8 parts to line it up to an LT230.

[Gazzar]

Can you use an LT230 as a remote transfer box? It would solve a few problems for you.

[Bowie69]

Certainly can, Rakeway make a bit:

http://www.rakeway.co.uk/page12.html

[Stellaghost]

10 minutes ago, Bowie69 said:

Certainly can, Rakeway make a bit:

http://www.rakeway.co.uk/page12.html

Any idea where the price list is for the rakeway stuff specifically the shorter lt230 output shaft regards Stephen

[smallfry]

Right. The RRC/Disco/P38 4HP22/24 gearbox will bolt straight onto the Jag bellhousing and TC. If you want a 4HP24, only the Thor type will do. The input shaft on the GEMS type is too big and long Other than that, that part of it is easy. BUT. On the RR/LR models, the gearbox is "clocked" clockwise looking from the rear. This will mean leaning the engine over in order to keep the transmission in the correct position for mountings and propshaft angles.

Other than that, you could modify the bellhousing to suit. I have a couple here should you need one.

AJ6 and 16 are good engines. couldnt tell you the sizes or weight or how they can be run standalone. One of the Jag fora (what what) maybe ?

[Bowie69]

Their pricelist is only in audio format, you use a portable telephone to speak with their sales department.

 

[smallfry]

9 minutes ago, smallfry said:

 

 

[Blanco]

45 minutes ago, smallfry said:

Right. The RRC/Disco/P38 4HP22/24 gearbox will bolt straight onto the Jag bellhousing and TC. If you want a 4HP24, only the Thor type will do. The input shaft on the GEMS type is too big and long Other than that, that part of it is easy. BUT. On the RR/LR models, the gearbox is "clocked" clockwise looking from the rear. This will mean leaning the engine over in order to keep the transmission in the correct position for mountings and propshaft angles.

Other than that, you could modify the bellhousing to suit. I have a couple here should you need one.

That's great feedback thanks Smallfry, the lad doesn't want much for it but unfortunately the central locking and security is already compromised, a feature I was hoping I could benefit from so I might wait for another one, there do seem to be a few around, I just missed one on Copart for £275 plus fees , only because I couldn't sign up in time. I'll wait a bit and see if I can find out more about the length and how it would sit in the engine bay.

If the one in the link was just a bit closer, I would take a punt, but with the travel (3.5hrs each way!) it's a bit far just for a look see.

[Blanco]

1 hour ago, Gazzar said:

Can you use an LT230 as a remote transfer box? It would solve a few problems for you.

On a 100" classic I think that would just make the drivetrain too long? my main concern here is to find out how the engine would sit against the standard transmission location (plus a small amount of adapter perhaps) and whether there is the space (ie length) in the engine bay. It seems that it would probably bolt up one way or another but might need a rotational adjustment somehow, not sure yet how far round it would sit. 

[smallfry]

The easy solution for the gearbox rotation would be to cut out the mating face from the Jag bellhousing then "turn" it in the correct position and weld it.

Hard to visualise without pictures, but fairly cheap and easy I am doing the same thing for my Lexus conversion.

Its turned about five degreesish, but I have made up a jig, so I could put the Jag bellhousing on it and tell you by exactly how much. This would keep the engine in its correct position.

[Bowie69]

Fairly certain these engines are massively long, have you waved a tape measure at things, or done a Google about engine dimensions?

[Blanco]

8 hours ago, Bowie69 said:

Fairly certain these engines are massively long, have you waved a tape measure at things, or done a Google about engine dimensions?

No is the short answer,.. the one in the link is about 3.5hrs drive away and Google hasn't turned up much except a handful of peeps who swap them into older Jags... in which case the length is immaterial so nobody seems to bother measuring anything. Was hoping someone here would have one or know something, hence the post. They look long in pictures certainly, but I also think the long low stance of the cars adds to that. The internal bore and stroke is quoted everywhere but not the outside dims.

[Blanco]

10 hours ago, smallfry said:

The easy solution for the gearbox rotation would be to cut out the mating face from the Jag bellhousing then "turn" it in the correct position and weld it.

That was my immediate thought, ... I take it they are aluminium?

[smallfry]

13 hours ago, Blanco said:

That was my immediate thought, ... I take it they are aluminium?

They are indeed. ISTR that the engine is quite long too.  There is a photo of the engine with the 4HP24 gearbox which will give you an idea of the length

https://motor-car.net/innovation/engines/1302-jaguar-engines/16207-jaguar-aj6-engine

[elbekko]

8 hours ago, smallfry said:

They are indeed. ISTR that the engine is quite long too.  There is a photo of the engine with the 4HP24 gearbox which will give you an idea of the length

https://motor-car.net/innovation/engines/1302-jaguar-engines/16207-jaguar-aj6-engine

That is ginormous

[Blanco]

Thanks Smallfry, it does look long,  the asking price for the stripped car is a tempting £300, if I can find wheels (all I have in hand are metric RRS 22", Jag seem to be 120.65 imperial, probably close enough just to load it, but might be a tad tall) and borrow a trailer I might yet go get it, and have a proper measure up. 📏

[Bowie69]

Put some planks under it and drag it up 😛 

Dimension wise, if you take the autobox at ~26.5" (found on the internet), and measure on the image supplied by @smallfry, it works out the engine being ~38" or 965mm long.

Accuracy is not guaranteed!

[Ed Poore]

Thinking about alternatives, although I haven't looked into their availability. What about the L28 (petrol version of what's in the 6x6)? (and subsequent variants) It's an amazingly compact engine and favoured by the Skyline crowd because you can get big big horsepower numbers out of them.

Nissan built the petrol and diesels so they're compatible and consequently the diesel crank is used quite often as a stroker for the petrol engine. Also means the petrol is (comparatively) quite a lump but immensely strong because it's basically a diesel block.

I haven't investigated it too much but my general feeling is that most of the more modern "British" engines tend to talk to everything within the vehicle (E.g. Gearbox, ABS, Body ECU etc). I was pleasantly surprised that the 1UZ ECU is standalone, might be worth looking into a Jap based inline 6? Toyota springs to mind. I've got a mate with a 4.2 straight 6 (but diesel) in an 80 series and that thing pulls very very well, especially as his truck recently got weighed at 3.2t on 35s. Had a quick measure up of the engine and would fit in the 6x6 I think. Although auto boxes tend to be a bit longer.

[Snagger]

Land Rover extended the SI wheel base by two inches to accommodate larger engines.  There’s nothing to stop you doing something similar if you’re willing to go through the admin.

This looks like a really interesting project.  Good luck with it!

[Blanco]

18 minutes ago, Ed Poore said:

Thinking about alternatives,.......

...... have been through most options before arriving at the BMW, .... which is tough to beat now for it's availability (and it's cheap) and the knowledge and solutions out there for the conversion. However few petrol engines compete with the Jag for torque, which was the immediate attraction when I saw it, and it seems to be readily available and cheap enough. 

I could re-build any of these to maximise the output, but I am not familiar with any of them, and I know from building engines in my youth that costs can quickly mount up when you get into the guts of even an apparently healthy engine, for that reason I want a standard lump, readily available that can just be swapped out in case of major trauma.

3 minutes ago, Snagger said:

There’s nothing to stop you doing something similar if you’re willing to go through the admin.

I think (a bit like scratch building an engine) it is definitely a case of keeping it achievable in a sensible timeframe! One nice aspect of building cars over here is that the I.D. is 100% invested in the chassis, so long as I keep the insurance advised and notify the new engine to the registration people, there is a minimum of fuss. Altering the chassis would probably involve engineers report and open up a different level of pain. Plus I like the shape of the RRC 2 door in  original form, I wouldn't want to alter the basic shape.

[smallfry]

The only problem with the Jap engines, is bottom end torque. I am doing a 1UZ slowly (only been six years so far) and even that has less bottom end torque than a 4.0 Rover V8 (on paper) depending on which dyno readout you look at. Might turn out to be disappointing, but I like the quality and smoothness of it.

I had a Datsun 240Z years ago (RIP KBM180N) and the engine was marvellous, high revving, smooth and powerful, but would be unsuitable for a LR IMO if you wanted to tow, or drive "normally" .

On the other hand the Jag straight sixes seem to have bags of bottom end torque, are hard to break, and would be much better suitedif you want a petrol, and can physically fit it in.

[Ed Poore]

11 minutes ago, smallfry said:

even that has less bottom end torque than a 4.0 Rover V8 (on paper) depending on which dyno readout you look at.

That may be true but, from my admittedly limited research, there seem to be far more options for souping up a 1UZ compared to the Rover engines. OK it's all internet backside on chair research but there are multiple instances of people pushing towards 1000hp from a 1UZ (albeit with replacing rods, etc) where as everything tends to stop not far above ~300hp for the Rover V8.

I realise that I'm now talking power rather than torque but since power is torque x angular velocity then provided you don't up the RPMs too much then you get more torque with more power.

Will find out shortly (well hopefully a bit quicker than 6 years) with the 6x6. Mind you anything's better than what's in there currently. Was half tempted to shove my spare 300Tdi with a new crank in there. I almost went down the 5.9 Cummins but glad I haven't now since it would have been a lot of messing around with gearing as I can't do the usual trick of increasing tyre size.

[Ed Poore]

If the AJ6 is going to be too long then what about a shorter engine such as the AJ-V6?

[Blanco]

1 hour ago, smallfry said:

On the other hand the Jag straight sixes seem to have bags of bottom end torque, are hard to break, and would be much better suitedif you want a petrol, and can physically fit it in.

Nailed it, ... my thoughts exactly.

1 hour ago, Ed Poore said:

If the AJ6 is going to be too long then what about a shorter engine such as the AJ-V6?

Yep might look at it if one comes along, .... have to check out the price/availability and what the gearbox fitment would be but I'l keep an eye out. 

[Blanco]

Well I joined a Jaguar forum to put this one to bed, and a helpful XJR owner came up with a number from the pulley nose  to the adapter plate .... 33"

which actually isn't so different from what is there. So, on the basis that it can be made to fit, I'm definitely going to get this (or another) breaker and give it a bash.