Benjamyn999 Posted October 21, 2021 Share Posted October 21, 2021 Is it lawful to have a metal bulbar with spotlights on the Defender? If so, I assume I would need to notify my insurer. Does anyone know what effect there might be on the comprehensive premium? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeremy996 Posted October 21, 2021 Share Posted October 21, 2021 Practically, it's down to the age of the vehicle and the bull-bar. The position statement is here: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/bull-bars/bull-bars. If it was manufactured pre 2007 and affixed to a vehicle registered pre 2007, you will probably be OK. Post 2007, you will struggle to find any for sale as the fines for unapproved commercial sales are large and unless it is e-marked it will be illegal. What difference it will make to an insurance policy will be unpredictable; sticking a pre 2007 bar on a post 2007 vehicle will not end well; after an incident, the insurer will consider you uninsured. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicken Drumstick Posted October 21, 2021 Share Posted October 21, 2021 If you notified the insurer, then I can’t see how they’d be able to deem you uninsured if they agreed to it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L19MUD Posted October 21, 2021 Share Posted October 21, 2021 Agreed. Nothing illegal about fitting one either General requirements It is not illegal for vehicles to be fitted with bull bars, although the department would not recommend their fitment unless it has been shown, through compliance with specified safety standards, that they do not pose an additional risk of injury to pedestrians or other vulnerable road users. There are no plans for legislation to require bull bars that are already fitted to be removed. However, since 25 May 2007, it has been an offence for bull bars that have not been approved as compliant with those safety standards to be sold. Approved devices will carry an indelible ‘e’ mark (for example: e1 01 1471). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
landroversforever Posted October 21, 2021 Share Posted October 21, 2021 Any and every modification from standard should be mentioned to your insurer. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reb78 Posted October 21, 2021 Share Posted October 21, 2021 It left the factory with it fitted......... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
missingsid Posted October 21, 2021 Share Posted October 21, 2021 3 hours ago, L19MUD said: Agreed. Nothing illegal about fitting one either General requirements It is not illegal for vehicles to be fitted with bull bars, although the department would not recommend their fitment unless it has been shown, through compliance with specified safety standards, that they do not pose an additional risk of injury to pedestrians or other vulnerable road users. There are no plans for legislation to require bull bars that are already fitted to be removed. However, since 25 May 2007, it has been an offence for bull bars that have not been approved as compliant with those safety standards to be sold. Approved devices will carry an indelible ‘e’ mark (for example: e1 01 1471). Doesn't this agree with jeremy996 comment? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeremy996 Posted October 21, 2021 Share Posted October 21, 2021 12 minutes ago, missingsid said: Doesn't this agree with jeremy996 comment? It is the same document! Mr Drumstick, (tongue in cheek), has not quite captured the nature of insurance companies; they don't apply the law, they are accepting a risk, but if the fitment and use is an offense, they will void the contract. You cannot bind them to an illegal act and it is not their responsibility to ensure your vehicle is fully legal. (Insurance companies are legally bound to pay out injury damages where their insured was intoxicated, but they will attempt to recover their losses to the third party from the insured). 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L19MUD Posted October 21, 2021 Share Posted October 21, 2021 41 minutes ago, missingsid said: Doesn't this agree with jeremy996 comment? Yes....hadn't clicked his link to see it was what I posted Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
missingsid Posted October 21, 2021 Share Posted October 21, 2021 OK thanks it seemed that you were saying opposite things with the same statement so I was confused. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThreePointFive Posted October 21, 2021 Share Posted October 21, 2021 I have a pre-07 ARB bumper on mine (1988), fully declared (with pictures) to the insurer but nowhere is there an E mark on it. I wonder where that leaves me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicken Drumstick Posted October 21, 2021 Share Posted October 21, 2021 1 hour ago, ThreePointFive said: I have a pre-07 ARB bumper on mine (1988), fully declared (with pictures) to the insurer but nowhere is there an E mark on it. I wonder where that leaves me. I don't know the specific regulations or law. The link on the .gov site, is like so many things .gov very very vague. Reading it literally it clearly says "It is not illegal for vehicles to be fitted with bull bars" with no mention of restrictions, only a preference that they'd rather you didn't. The next paragraph would also seem clear stating "There are no plans for legislation to require bull bars that are already fitted to be removed", no dates are referenced here. The next sentence does say this "However, since 25 May 2007, it has been an offence for bull bars that have not been approved as compliant with those safety standards to be sold. " but it is clearly not mentioning anything to do with year of manufacture, just a 'year' this somehow became an offence. It doesn't even state 2007 has any relevance to a vehicle, but implies it is more to the bar or just a period in time. It also doesn't qualify what 'sold' means in this context. Is it sold aftermarket or only as a car manufacture official accessory (i.e. dealer fit)? I say this, as clearly bull bars are not licensed items like a firearm. You should be able to buy them for off road only vehicles without the need for them to meet certain standards or be e-marked, such as for a quad/UTV or other non road use vehicle. Therefore I suspect there is far more behind the simple statement. To further this, if it as simple as they are illegal to sell unless e-marked, then how come there are so many companies in the UK either importing or manufacturing bullbars for vehicles in the UK, including vehicles that were built and sold after 2007. If the statement of they are illegal to sell is true, you'd think it would be a simple open and closed case, shutting down imports and sale of such items. You'd also suspect if true, then insurance companies would be unwilling to list them as items and print documentation to show they took a fee to say you are insured with said item. Having said all the above, what it does clearly say is, the offence is in the 'selling', not the buying, fitting or use of. Although clearly this would also seem to suggest selling of 2nd hand bullbars since 2007 has also been an offence. So again, as per my comment above. I suspect there is more going on here. And you'd either need case law as a precedent, or a more fully detailed reference to the specific regulation(s) in question. I will also freely admit, I have no idea on what the legal definition is of a 'bull bar' and how it would differ from a winch bumper or heavy duty bumper. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
western Posted October 22, 2021 Share Posted October 22, 2021 I think that was aimed at supplying vehicle dealers they were only allowed to fit E marked/approved bars the rubber coated type to new vehicles, but a owner could retrofit whatever bar the wanted. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeremy996 Posted October 22, 2021 Share Posted October 22, 2021 12 hours ago, ThreePointFive said: I have a pre-07 ARB bumper on mine (1988), fully declared (with pictures) to the insurer but nowhere is there an E mark on it. I wonder where that leaves me. As both the vehicle and the ARB bumper is pre 2007, you will be fine. There is a general expectation that legislation is not retrospective; putting an early bumper on a late vehicle is a type approval issue and will take a zealous policeman or DVSA inspector to spot the problem. After an injury/claim situation, an insurance company engineer/inspector is looking for anything that may reduce or invalidate the claim. Unapproved bars on a late vehicle make their job easier. If you, as the owner of a vehicle, make a vehicle more dangerous to operate for yourself or for a passer-by, you can find yourself on the wrong end of a damages claim or, if you are the injured party, having your compensation reduced. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicken Drumstick Posted October 22, 2021 Share Posted October 22, 2021 1 hour ago, jeremy996 said: As both the vehicle and the ARB bumper is pre 2007, you will be fine. There is a general expectation that legislation is not retrospective; putting an early bumper on a late vehicle is a type approval issue and will take a zealous policeman or DVSA inspector to spot the problem. After an injury/claim situation, an insurance company engineer/inspector is looking for anything that may reduce or invalidate the claim. Unapproved bars on a late vehicle make their job easier. If you, as the owner of a vehicle, make a vehicle more dangerous to operate for yourself or for a passer-by, you can find yourself on the wrong end of a damages claim or, if you are the injured party, having your compensation reduced. How/where are you are getting the pre 2007 thing? Not disputing, but as I posted above. The .gov link doesn't say anything about year of the vehicle. Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nonimouse Posted October 22, 2021 Share Posted October 22, 2021 "However, since 25 May 2007, it has been an offence for bull bars that have not been approved as compliant with those safety standards to be sold. Approved devices will carry an indelible ‘e’ mark (for example: e1 01 1471)." Uk law is lovely in that it's rarely retrospective. The change in the law was inacted from 25/05/07 Thus, like the Tow bar regs, or the Driving licence regs, pre that specific date is ok Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicken Drumstick Posted October 22, 2021 Share Posted October 22, 2021 1 hour ago, Nonimouse said: "However, since 25 May 2007, it has been an offence for bull bars that have not been approved as compliant with those safety standards to be sold. Approved devices will carry an indelible ‘e’ mark (for example: e1 01 1471)." Uk law is lovely in that it's rarely retrospective. The change in the law was inacted from 25/05/07 Thus, like the Tow bar regs, or the Driving licence regs, pre that specific date is ok I get that. But as said, that doesn’t say anything about vehicles or fitting from 2007. All it says is bull bars being sold from 2007…. So I’m genuinely curious. Is there other info specifically stating vehicles manufactured/sold post 2007 can’t have them fitted. Or is it a case of people slightly misreading the above? If the former, then I’d love a reference letter link to bookmark. 🙂 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nonimouse Posted October 22, 2021 Share Posted October 22, 2021 https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/bull-bars/bull-bars This explains it much better than I can Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
western Posted October 22, 2021 Share Posted October 22, 2021 Simply selling main dealers on a brand new vehicle cannot or not legally allowed to fit a steel bull bar, only the rubber covered deformable type is allowed, But once the vehicle is sold the owner can fit whatever the want to. Is how I understand it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicken Drumstick Posted October 22, 2021 Share Posted October 22, 2021 1 hour ago, Nonimouse said: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/bull-bars/bull-bars This explains it much better than I can Lol not sure if you missed it. I’ve already quoted that content above, it is the very content I’m questioning….. It clearly says nothing about vehicle year of manufacture and only mentions the selling of bull bars from 2007. Not the fitting, buying or use of. 🙂 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
missingsid Posted October 22, 2021 Share Posted October 22, 2021 The comment re not being retrospective to me is that they cannot stop you using an old one if you already have it but hope to phase them out by stopping the sale of them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
western Posted October 22, 2021 Share Posted October 22, 2021 You can still buy new steel bullbars, lots on google Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeremy996 Posted October 23, 2021 Share Posted October 23, 2021 (edited) This is where law away from specifics becomes relevant. As a general statement you can fit what you like in the UK, provided it is not a direct hazard to passers-by. This is not the situation in most of Europe, where there is an expectation that you will leave the vehicle "as built". (Interesting incident where "stanced" cars were tested and seized for non-conformity in Germany: https://www.thedrive.com/news/28082/several-modified-and-stance-cars-seized-by-german-police-en-route-to-worthersee-in-uk). If you put a non-approved bar on a post 2007 vehicle and you kill someone, where an unmodified vehicle would have only maimed them, your penalty may well be higher, your insurance company may forsake you, (or at least read the contract very carefully and look to void it) and life will be much more complicated. I am not aware of an actual case, so this is more theoretical than actual, but this is how the litigators look at it. Winch bars have not been legislated, (so far), but common law suggests you have a duty of care to your fellow man, so unnecessary sharp bits perforating a pedestrian will, most likely, get you in hot water. Looking at the Google ads that Western shared, the A bars are generally sold as "for off-road use only", the only heavy-duty bumper I could see was 2nd hand and all of the ARB bars are winch bumpers in disguise, (with a cover fitted if no winch). Edited October 23, 2021 by jeremy996 Updated for Google ads Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
missingsid Posted October 23, 2021 Share Posted October 23, 2021 Sharp bits are covered by an MOT fail (at least for bodywork). And I believe reason for the Police to stop and check. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicken Drumstick Posted October 23, 2021 Share Posted October 23, 2021 15 hours ago, jeremy996 said: This is where law away from specifics becomes relevant. As a general statement you can fit what you like in the UK, provided it is not a direct hazard to passers-by. This is not the situation in most of Europe, where there is an expectation that you will leave the vehicle "as built". (Interesting incident where "stanced" cars were tested and seized for non-conformity in Germany: https://www.thedrive.com/news/28082/several-modified-and-stance-cars-seized-by-german-police-en-route-to-worthersee-in-uk). If you put a non-approved bar on a post 2007 vehicle and you kill someone, where an unmodified vehicle would have only maimed them, your penalty may well be higher, your insurance company may forsake you, (or at least read the contract very carefully and look to void it) and life will be much more complicated. I am not aware of an actual case, so this is more theoretical than actual, but this is how the litigators look at it. Winch bars have not been legislated, (so far), but common law suggests you have a duty of care to your fellow man, so unnecessary sharp bits perforating a pedestrian will, most likely, get you in hot water. Looking at the Google ads that Western shared, the A bars are generally sold as "for off-road use only", the only heavy-duty bumper I could see was 2nd hand and all of the ARB bars are winch bumpers in disguise, (with a cover fitted if no winch). Jeremy this is all fine and good. Although I’m not completely convinced an insurance company can legally back track as you say. But where are you getting “vehicle” 2007 from? Do you have any other links. As the one above doesn’t not say vehicle year. Thanks 🙂 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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