NOCO Lithium NLP30 in a Defender TD5

[Mediamab]

I have been using this forum for many months since owning my TD5 and it has proved amazingly useful so figured its time to ask my first question  

My battery is rather knackered and a mate just offered me 2 x NOCO NLP30 motorbike (lithium) batteries. This got me thinking - would they be useable in my Defender, their compared AH is about 70 and crank power is high. Theyre super small and super light so would allow me to fit more in the battery box. 

I am sure im missing something (car electronics isn't my fortay!) but figured I will ask and hope its not a ridiculously stupid question. If it is not a stupid idea, how would I look to connect them together? 

Many thanks!!!! 

[western]

So others can see the subject battery 

https://no.co/nlp30

[FridgeFreezer]

Quote

NLP30 12V Lithium Powersport Battery, a Group 30 battery, rated at 8Ah (99Wh) and 700-amps of starting power.

8Ah is about 1/10th or less than a regular Land Rover battery (usually 90-110Ah capacity) and I suspect if they're designed for motorbikes they're not going to enjoy kicking over a big ugly TD5 on the regular even if their peak spec is 700A cranking.

If it doesn't start first  time on the button there may be nothing left for a 2nd crank

[Mediamab]

Yeah I noticed on the net it suggest the equivalent AH vs lead acid is around 32. So I saw that as giving a combined 64 which with lithium not loosing its full energy anywhere near as soon then may do the trick?

im very much open to my idea is awful though

Edited December 2, 2021 by Mediamab

[Mo Murphy]

Put them in, see what happens and then come back and tell us 👍

Mo

[Peaklander]

18 hours ago, Mediamab said:

I noticed on the net it suggest the equivalent AH vs lead acid is around 32

I would have thought that an AmpHour is an AmpHour as it is a direct measured unit. This is unlike something like a Watt when used to express the brightness of a lamp as then there’s the conversion efficiency from electricity to light. 

[Bowie69]

True, but lead acid can only really use half their capacity in the real world, lithium can get to 99% with good management.

[Mediamab]

9 hours ago, Mo Murphy said:

Put them in, see what happens and then come back and tell us 👍

Mo

Yeah I’m more wary that I don’t want to cause any damage to the truck or end up wasting money ha

[Mediamab]

I’m also a little wary how I’d connect the terminals as the connection doesn’t look the same as a standard car battery. Not sure if that’s an easy one though?

[Mo Murphy]

2 hours ago, Mediamab said:

Yeah I’m more wary that I don’t want to cause any damage to the truck or end up wasting money ha

Borrow them from your mate for the day to try them out before buying. I don't think you'll do any damage.

Mo

Ps  get loads of pictures of the fire ! 😉

[Mediamab]

3 minutes ago, Mo Murphy said:

Borrow them from your mate for the day to try them out before buying. I don't think you'll do any damage.

Mo

Ps  get loads of pictures of the fire ! 😉

Haha that’s making me nervous

[Bowie69]

P.s. lithium batteries need careful management of charge, or they blow up. No car equipped with just an alternator will do this properly.

P.p.s lithium batteries are probably a different voltage, which may blow stuff up on your truck.

P.p.p.s lithium batteries really don't like being over discharged....or they blow up and catch fire.

P.p.p.p.s lithium batteries can fail if stored fully charged... catch fire and blow up.

P.p.p.p.p.s if you still want to give it a try, go for it. 

 

With that I am off to buy some shares in Tate fire.

 

[Mo Murphy]

And I'm off to buy shares in Tate & Lyle

Mo

[FridgeFreezer]

Lies, damned lies, and spec sheets...

Fundamentally you're asking if a motorcycle battery is suitable for a 2.5 litre diesel 4x4, if you want a solid answer I'd phone the manufacturers and ask if they'd recommend it or honour the warranty if you fitted it... I think I can guess their answer

[Mediamab]

Yeah I’d hope the BMS on them would help make them safer but think it sounds like I’ll stick with the old fashioned way n not take risks ha!!

on that … what’s the advice on a battery that’ll last n be more than enough grunt?  

[FridgeFreezer]

 

Etc. etc. etc...

 

[Ed Poore]

On 12/3/2021 at 3:30 PM, Peaklander said:

I would have thought that an AmpHour is an AmpHour as it is a direct measured unit. This is unlike something like a Watt when used to express the brightness of a lamp as then there’s the conversion efficiency from electricity to light. 

Amp Hour (with an associated voltage) is a unit / measure of energy. Watt is a unit of power, Energy = Power x Time.

[Bowie69]

Yep, lot of batteries are rated in watt/hour now.... which sometimes helps.

[Mediamab]

I see ok! Thanks so much for all your advice guys, looks like it stopped me doing something stupid haha  

[Sigi_H]

They use Ah for acid bats, because they are all measured with 12V. LiFePO4 has another Voltage (~14.8), thats why they are measured in Wh.

Example: Acid 10Ah = 10Ax12Vx1h = 120Wh

LiFePO4: 120Wh/14.8V/1h = 8.1A => a LiFePO4 with ~8 Ah has got the same capacity than a 10 Ah Acid bat.

But the inner resistance of a Li bat is lower than Acid bat. That means the ability of cranking is better. Thats why they can use half smaller LiFePO4 bats on motorcycles.

On the other hand temperature is the main problem. With temps lower than 5° I had to crank 3 times to get the bat warm enough to start my Aprilia. Below 0° even charging is a problem.

all Li bats with a Y in their name are Ytrium doped, which means better Temp properties

Since your generator produces 13.8V, keep in mind => a LFePO4 will work, but it will never get fully charged. You will need another regulator for the generator to get the bat full

There are Bosch with 14.5V

not perfect but better

 

Edited December 5, 2021 by Sigi_H

[Peaklander]

4 hours ago, Ed Poore said:

Amp Hour (with an associated voltage) is a unit / measure of energy. Watt is a unit of power, Energy = Power x Time.

Yes I know that. I was suggesting that all battery derived Amp Hours are the same and so can be compared, whereas in my example, you can't compare the brightness of different types of bulbs by looking at the Watts. In the 'olden days' we could because they were all basically the same filament types but now you can't.

However @Sigi_H  has pointed out that the differences in battery chemistry do much the same thing for their capacities and hence the difficulty in comparing them.

[Mediamab]

17 hours ago, Sigi_H said:

They use Ah for acid bats, because they are all measured with 12V. LiFePO4 has another Voltage (~14.8), thats why they are measured in Wh.

Example: Acid 10Ah = 10Ax12Vx1h = 120Wh

LiFePO4: 120Wh/14.8V/1h = 8.1A => a LiFePO4 with ~8 Ah has got the same capacity than a 10 Ah Acid bat.

But the inner resistance of a Li bat is lower than Acid bat. That means the ability of cranking is better. Thats why they can use half smaller LiFePO4 bats on motorcycles.

On the other hand temperature is the main problem. With temps lower than 5° I had to crank 3 times to get the bat warm enough to start my Aprilia. Below 0° even charging is a problem.

all Li bats with a Y in their name are Ytrium doped, which means better Temp properties

Since your generator produces 13.8V, keep in mind => a LFePO4 will work, but it will never get fully charged. You will need another regulator for the generator to get the bat full

There are Bosch with 14.5V

not perfect but better

 

This is great - thank you for sharing the details!!

[Junglie]

On 12/3/2021 at 10:30 PM, Bowie69 said:

P.s. lithium batteries need careful management of charge, or they blow up. No car equipped with just an alternator will do this properly.

P.p.s lithium batteries are probably a different voltage, which may blow stuff up on your truck.

P.p.p.s lithium batteries really don't like being over discharged....or they blow up and catch fire.

P.p.p.p.s lithium batteries can fail if stored fully charged... catch fire and blow up.

P.p.p.p.p.s if you still want to give it a try, go for it. 

 

With that I am off to buy some shares in Tate fire.

 

While this made me chuckle...

My track bike has a Lithium battery. No change to the alternator or management, it's just lighter and doesn't spill carp all over the track, the marshals or me when I throw it into the scenery.

The voltage is the same - 12v

They hold charge like forever. I hadn't touched the track bike for 2 years (Covid and other things) and it started first prod of the button.

It's never been fully discharged, but I do agree they don't like it very much. 

Connect them in parallel - neutral to neutral and positive to positive and then connect one of each terminal to the truck. Or connect both.  DO NOT CONNECT THEM IN SERIES (+ve to -ve) as you will then have 24v which would be A Bad Thing.

Use some chunky cable to connect them.

It'll either work or it won't. The chances of killing anything are miniscule.

[Klara]

You might as well ad, if you like to have a good lifespan... (totally agree to Bowie69´s list above)
...they don´t like being charged in freezing temp (even thou you have the right voltage/cycle for the battery in store).

PS
There are a miles of text about it in the "Sailing / Cruising" forums (Pros and Cons of Lithium batteries).

[reb78]

On 12/3/2021 at 10:30 PM, Bowie69 said:

P.s. lithium batteries need careful management of charge, or they blow up. No car equipped with just an alternator will do this properly.

P.p.s lithium batteries are probably a different voltage, which may blow stuff up on your truck.

P.p.p.s lithium batteries really don't like being over discharged....or they blow up and catch fire.

P.p.p.p.s lithium batteries can fail if stored fully charged... catch fire and blow up.

P.p.p.p.p.s if you still want to give it a try, go for it. 

 

With that I am off to buy some shares in Tate fire.

 

And what type of battery are we seeing in EV's?