O/T scratch repairs, not on a LR

[sean f]

This is completely off topic of LR so mods feel free to delete if you wish.

I know there is a lot of experience on here some in the motor trade so can any one say what is involved in fixing the scratches in the pictures and roughly what it would cost (commercial price), it is on a Kia Sportage and standard colour, no metallic etc.

The scratches are inside the white marker pen lines.

Front driver door

Passenger front wing

Passenger rear bumper

All estimates or comments are welcome!.

[landroversforever]

Are they able to be felt with a finger nail? I was told a rule of thumb that if you can feel them with a finger nail then they'll need paint, anything less should polish out. 

 

[smallfry]

Apprenticed body and paint in the late Seventies, got out of as a job as I hated it. No idea on up to date prices really, but to touch it in doesn't really work as it can be seen usually, and I imagine a panel spray will cost north of £300 these days. 

I cant really see anything much with the photos, so they might polish out. There are also scratch concealing polishes which are not too bad.

Someone like Chips Away will give you an idea on price, but I can normally spot their work, and if you want it done, have it done while the weather is warm.

Is this a lease car by any chance ? They will have you bent over a barrel !

[sean f]

3 hours ago, smallfry said:

Apprenticed body and paint in the late Seventies, got out of as a job as I hated it. No idea on up to date prices really, but to touch it in doesn't really work as it can be seen usually, and I imagine a panel spray will cost north of £300 these days. 

I cant really see anything much with the photos, so they might polish out. There are also scratch concealing polishes which are not too bad.

Someone like Chips Away will give you an idea on price, but I can normally spot their work, and if you want it done, have it done while the weather is warm.

Is this a lease car by any chance ? They will have you bent over a barrel !

Yep its a hire car, and these are the best shot of the scratches they can provide, even they admit the can't be seen but "Upon reviewing the matter below, even though the damages are not visible on the photos below, the scratches can be seen on the vehicle when returned by one of our representatives." so basically cough up.

Just though I would see if anyone else could see them, they are charging me £420. I never saw the scratches and car was dropped of in the airport car park and left there for 4 days before they looked at it and then they sent the bill with this as proof. Seriously not happy but it appear I have to prove I didn't scratch it so looks like I will be paying eventually or have to take it to court which would likely cost more even if I won.

Anyone looking at hiring a car I would advice taking close up video before collection and after just in case, I didn't but wish I had.

[smallfry]

Did they offer an insurance waiver when hiring ? I know it doesn't help now, but something to think about in the future.

This is the trouble with them when you hire. They want you out of the door ASAP, and you want to on your way. How do you know they not there when you hired it ? Unless you crawl round on your hands and knees and its not raining, how are you going to spot this ? Most importantly. were you there in person when the car was returned and the scratches were spotted, or did they come back to you later ? If so, or they picked the car up and you were not present, I would say that it was fine when it left me, and you can go forth and multiply.

[landroversforever]

The last few things I’ve hired have been vans through enterprise. They’ve always been fine. Always walked me round the vehicle first and noted anything down and let me add stuff that was already present. And no issues when returning. 

[Retroanaconda]

I can’t see any scratches in those photos?

Fair enough you basically have to pay up if it’s damaged even if you didn’t do it, but if they cannot provide you some evidence of the damage they don’t really have anything to charge you for.

[smallfry]

51 minutes ago, Retroanaconda said:

I can’t see any scratches in those photos?

Fair enough you basically have to pay up if it’s damaged even if you didn’t do it, but if they cannot provide you some evidence of the damage they don’t really have anything to charge you for.

Actually thats a very good point. I can't see any damage of note in those pics.

[pat_pending]

I can't see any damage.

However, assuming there are scratches, a mobile smart repair would probably be around £45 + vat a scratch, less if they were close together.

Whatever they charge you, they won't get the repair done.

Hire companies generally lease their vehicles, and unless the damage is significant won't repair them, they just pay a general damages fee when they come off lease (covered by all the times they've charged hirer's).

I think at the stage you're at you'll struggle to get out of it.

[sean f]

A few replies to peoples points.

I appealed on the grounds I couldn't see any damage in the picture provided, direct quote from there reply "Upon reviewing the matter below, even though the damages are not visible on the photos below, the scratches can be seen on the vehicle when returned by one of our representatives.", so they admit no damage can be seen in pictures but still demand the money.

I wasn't there when it was inspected, it was dropped off in the airport carpark on there instructions and key dropped at there desk, from the time of my ticket for going into the car park to the time it was inspected was 4 days, so yes anything could have happened in-between, I questioned that and as far as they are concerned the hirer is responsible until they decide to pick it up or inspect it, I guess you might get somewhere if you could prove it happened after hire (good case for videoing the car when you drop it off) other wise it is up to the hirer to park it in a safe place if it gets damaged it wasn't a safe place so hirers fault.

With regard not actually doing the repairs they charge for, as part of the claim they sent me a package of picture of all the pre-existing damage, they claim I was given this at the hire, (according to the claims people every hirer is handed a package of photos of all pre-existing damage to check off on the vehicle and gets to keep it for reference when checking the vehicle back in again) I wasn't, although they attached a digital copy of my signature to it anyway, on that was this picture. Not only does this show what I would actually consider damage unlike the ones they sent me but they left the date on the top of the image. So it has been there for over a year not repaired, bet some one was charge for the repair though.

I have never had trouble with Enterprise either and would go there again, I won't name the company here, it was a corporate hire for work so not down to me, otherwise I might open the forum to trouble but I will say it is an international brand. I won't say what I think of them and there ethics either or the swear filter will be doing overtime!.

Separately what's a unit of frequency?........

This has seriously annoyed me and not done good things to my blood pressure, so mostly posting just to let off a bit of steam, I shouldn't be bothered to much as ultimately it will go in via expenses so its not my money but its still annoys me, at best its very poor customer service (there customer service is only available via email, they have no facility to actually speak to someone at all which is not good). It was a 9 hour drive, all but a few miles on motorway or duel carriageway, if they had claimed for a few stone chips on the bonnet I would have unwillingly admitted it was possible and paid up but I genuinely believe I did not do this, I just can't prove it (will get the phone camera going next time though at both ends of any hire), there attitude has been we are claiming it up to you to prove you didn't do anything not us to prove any damage even exists.

[Eightpot]

As you've now learned, inspect hire cars thoroughly before and after collection and take a few photos, I never leave one without getting someone to inspect it in front of me. I always take out windscreen cover as well, been burned there in the past, and if there's any problem with the car, fix it before you take it back, extend the hire if needs be. I had to pay £400 for a windscreen chip once 😡

But back to your point, business use or no, I'd not accept those lousy photos as a basis for a charge, especially with the gap between drop off & inspection which is nowhere near reasonable. There's some good info here which might be of use? https://www.travelsupermarket.com/en-gb/blog/travel-advice/disputing-car-hire-charges-what-are-your-rights/

[reb78]

Sinnce you didnt sign that document I'd tell them that the use of your signature without your permission amounts to fraud and if they want to pursue you for damage that cannot be seen in the photos they have sent you, you will pursue them for fraudulent use of your signature.

I had this issue with a hire car in south africa. We were in a rush when we dropped the car off and a week later got a massive bill for wrecking two wheels and a bumper. We hadnt and there were four of us to testify to that. I got my card company to stop the charge, cancelled the card and then took it up with the hire car company. Ended up with an admission that someone had done it after drop off and was pulling a fast one and then an apology. 

[simonr]

IMHO, this seems to be a scam!

I rented a car in Berlin.  When I went to collect, I rejected it because it was some sort of Micro-Car and I just couldn't get in to the drivers seat.  They couldn't offer anything bigger - so we went our separate ways & I thought no more about it.  I took my 110 out there instead - which was probably more fun.

Then, six months later (it was going to be a 6 month hire), I received a bill for damage to the vehicle!

The 'computer error' was sorted out quickly & easily - but it made me wonder if they just do this as a matter of course to business hires as I suspect in most cases, it just gets rubber-stamped by the company hiring the vehicle - and the employee gets the blame.  I wonder if it's part of their business model to lower the apparent headline rental cost?

[pat_pending]

40 minutes ago, simonr said:

IMHO, this seems to be a scam!

Yep, pretty standard across the hire car sector.

 

19 hours ago, sean f said:

ultimately it will go in via expenses so its not my money

Someone's paying though, it's a cost that eventually gets passed onto the end user of whatever goods or services your company supply.

We all end up paying for these scams.

[reb78]

I'd seriously throw the threat of legal action in for putting your signature on a document without your permission. I bet they back down at that, especially as their pictures show no damage!

[sean f]

At work at the moment and been too busy to reply for a while.

Witnessing it getting checked on return wasn't an option, it was hired for me by the office via a corporate travel agent to go from home to a heliport to get to work, so I dropped it off in the afternoon after the office had shut and then flew out the following morning before they had opened. I know the company and travel agent are currently doing an assessment of various suppliers of travel, in many cases for flights etc there is no alternative but plenty of different hotels and hire car companies in most places so they are ranked in preferred suppliers. I don't (and probable never will) know the full results but my case and all the correspondence has been submitted and I have been led to believe this particular company is significantly higher in terms of lodging damage claims than others, with probable 10 hire car being used every week from different suppliers and a few long term hires all being picked up or dropped off at different home locations (although generally to or from airports at one end of the hire) you would think it would average out about the same when it doesn't it makes you think....

I absolutely should have taken pictures before and after but knew it was a long drive so wanted to get going and then was tired when I stopped, and to be honest didn't think about it at the time, I will now. We normally seem to use europcar and I have never had an issue with them, I had a broken indicator on one from a stone/object flicked up on a motorway a few year back, they charged me but it was honestly damaged so no complaint, the charge was on the higher side but not unreasonable, about the list price for the indicator plus a bit. Never had a claim like this before.

The cynical side of me wonders if the charge is set at a level where many people or companies will decide its not worth there time (and cost of that time) to investigate themselves or pushing back too hard and will just give up and pay.

Trying to make a charge for a car you never even collected is fairly obviously attempted fraud with an out for them of then blaming it on a computer / technical fault to wiggle out, if you had actually had the car it would have been more difficult to prove you hadn't done anything and frankly on a 6 month hire they is bound to be some sort of minor scratches of some sort, from other people walking past if nothing else.

At the moment this is with my boss, as he will have to sign it off on my expenses, I have done my best to appeal with absolutely no success and very little in the way of communications back other than "please pay this now", it is how ever me personally being billed and threatened with unspecified additional action being taken so not to happy. If it was a personal hire I would wait and see but I expect the office will agree to pay and again the cynic in me says this is what they count on.

[sean f]

Well just to close this out.

My boss agreed for it to be paid via my expenses, and then it started again, the link to a card payment option they provided goes so far and then spits out errors of invalid number refer to vendor, tried several different browsers and couldn't get past the error, never even got to the part where I enter the company card details, got a friend to try just to make sure I wasn't doing anything silly and he couldn't get any further either. They have no customer services number to call (probable to many complaints!), there online helps advise was talk to customer services as they didn't have a clue so not a lot of help, rung the bookings number to see if I could get transferred internally, they tried calling internally but couldn't get hold of anyone from customer services either and had no idea what to do, they suggested a couple of other numbers to call both of which rung out with no reply. Gave up and emailed customer services (copied in damages payment person so they were aware of the problems with there system) explaining the problem with screen shots and asking for a solution, got an automated reply and a case number nothing else.

Two weeks later no reply from customer services but got a demand for payment and a threat of unspecified legal action against me personally via a 3rd party collections agency if I didn't pay immediately. The only other payment option is a direct bank transfer to a German bank account Bank: Deutsche Bank IBAN: GB24DEUT40508119796509 BIC: DEUTGB2L, since its a corporate hire it needs to go on the company card and to the best of my knowledge its not possible to make this sort of transfer from a credit card, I don't have any access to the actual bank accounts to make a payment, if I pay it from my personal bank account they will get funny with expenses and probable reject it as they want everything to be paid via company card.

Don't want this on my credit rating so contacted one of our IT guys to see if he could work anything out, with him remoted into my PC he hit the same errors as I did, fiddled around with settings and still couldn't get anywhere, eventually he tried via his PC and changed some more advanced setting (no idea what its above my IT knowledge!) and managed to make the payment he said it wasn't easy.

It really shouldn't be that difficult for me to actually give them money and says something about them that its impossible to actually get any sort of reply from customer services on how to make a payment but you get threatened with legal action for not making the payment.

There didn't get a good write up on Trustpilot which added to plenty of other complaints, there rating is 1.4 on a scale of 1 to 5.

Rant over and I didn't even trigger the swear filter!.

[Snagger]

All this reeks of a scam.  If it was legit, they would answer calls and would take credit card payments, not just transfers - bank transfers, bankers’ drafts, PayPal “friends and family” and Crypto are scammer’s favourites because they are hard to trace and irreversible, so anyone demanding payment by those should be written off as a thief.

They have no evidence that the car was damaged in your care.  Their photos show noting at all, so even if they held metadata of the date of return, it still does not constitute evidence of damage.  That their inspection was so much later than the return renders any claim totally unprovable as so much time has elected for others to have cause the damage since.

They have committed fraud by using your signature on a document without your active signing or permission.  That should be reported to their head office, the authorities and their insurer.  I’d name them and write to the advice columns in the papers - they love getting stuck into this sort of thing and normally get the charges rescinded.