Chassis Swap Advice

[mcc1979ian]

Evening gents, Iv abit of a query regarding a chassis swap. Approx 15yr ago I started rebuilding a 1985 90, I bought a new galved Richards chassis not long after which I stamped with the vin number before painting. Since this I change suspension etc and swapped out the dead 200tdi for a 4.6v8 which Iv yet to fire up. Basically Iv not touched it for around 6-7yr but wanna get back to it. 
 

The next part to the story is I bought a 1986 90 to use to run to work which I thought might give me a bit gee up to get on wi the 85, but I got carried away and spent the time on this, slowly robbing parts from the 85 to fit on the 86 like roof, doors, bonnet, x eng handbrake, disc rear axle and finally the bulkhead and some of the dash. Now my 86 could do wi a little tlc and a wee bit chassis work. 
 

What I’m thinking is I’d buy a new rear tub as mines not great and the 85 one is a mess then strip the body off the 86, repaint and fit to the galv chassis I have stamped up for the 85 once I get the engine plumbed up and running. 
 

My question is would it be legal to do this?

 

I still have log book, vin plate etc for the 85

[daveturnbull]

I don't see why not. It's still a new chassis, not seen the road. You'd probably be better off using the 85 vin as that's what you stamped on the chassis.

[steve b]

once the chassis is stamped it is then for that one vehicle. Building it up as a different truck would make a road side check very traumatic indeed...

build it up with the correct reg for the VIN.

If it was not stamped it is then a replacement component.

Steve

[miketomcat]

Strictly speaking non of this is legal as you've already swapped out to many bits of the original 85 car. However we all know that most of the bits are un-traceable so, I would build the 85 car with the best bits and scrap the 86. At least this way you end up with one truck with matching plates/numbers and the other is gone never to return.

Mike

[Chicken Drumstick]

With the value of Defenders I don't think I'd be in the mind to scrap anything tbh... 😲

[steve b]

I don't see how parts such as bodywork being swapped make it illegal - surely it's just the disc brake rear axle and engine(s) that might raise questions but even that is unlikely as both are common upgrades and within the standard 90/Defender90 build sheets. Ok , the 4.6 was never an option but the RV8 is.

I also see no need to scrap what is left if the '85 is built onto the stamped galv chassis. 

Steve

[Chicken Drumstick]

14 hours ago, mcc1979ian said:

Evening gents, Iv abit of a query regarding a chassis swap. Approx 15yr ago I started rebuilding a 1985 90, I bought a new galved Richards chassis not long after which I stamped with the vin number before painting. Since this I change suspension etc and swapped out the dead 200tdi for a 4.6v8 which Iv yet to fire up. Basically Iv not touched it for around 6-7yr but wanna get back to it. 
 

The next part to the story is I bought a 1986 90 to use to run to work which I thought might give me a bit gee up to get on wi the 85, but I got carried away and spent the time on this, slowly robbing parts from the 85 to fit on the 86 like roof, doors, bonnet, x eng handbrake, disc rear axle and finally the bulkhead and some of the dash. Now my 86 could do wi a little tlc and a wee bit chassis work. 
 

What I’m thinking is I’d buy a new rear tub as mines not great and the 85 one is a mess then strip the body off the 86, repaint and fit to the galv chassis I have stamped up for the 85 once I get the engine plumbed up and running. 
 

My question is would it be legal to do this?

 

I still have log book, vin plate etc for the 85

I'll be honest I'm not 100% sure on what you are meaning exactly. I've read it 3 times and still a little lost....

This is the guidance from the .gov site:

https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-registration/radically-altered-vehicles

https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-registration/rebuilt-vehicles

 

Note there are two sets of regs and nothing to say which applies. The entire process is a self declaration one.

In the case of a ladder chassis vehicle like the Ninety. Things such as bodywork, doors, dash, bulkhead, handbrake are not deemed part of the vehicle and you can remove/exchange these at will.

You can't build two cars out of one, but only in terms of the chassis. Bodywork from one can go on another.

Blatantly rebadging/number one vehicle as another would not be in the spirit of the regulations. i.e. you'd end up with two vehicles wearing the same VIN and registration.

[smallfry]

You have not stolen anything (I hope) so I don't see any problem at all. Probably not in the spirit of the regulations, but as most older LRs about have been fiddled with in one way or another, and have had used body parts from all over the place, will not be any different from most other vehicles out there, including the vehicles of most members of this forum.

So just do it.

[toenden]

Strictly speaking from reading your post, are you actually not just rebuilding the 85 with its own parts, which have been borrowed to the 86 for some time more than rechassissing the 86? 

Not bring from UK I can not help with the legal side, but it sounds straight forward. 

/mads

[Snagger]

Please check my understanding:

You have two similar 90s.  One has been a stalled project with new chassis, the other is now in need of work too.  You want to use parts of the running vehicle, primarily body and dash parts and the rear axle, to continue the restoration of the earlier vehicle with its new chassis?

Assuming the new chassis complies with the regs by being of similar spec to the original (and having been new and unused), then merely swapping out an axle and engine brings you eleven points (chassis 5, steering 2, suspension 2 and transmission 2) and you only need 8.  You will lose 2 points for not having both original axles and 1 point for the engine swap.  Even if you decide to replace the transmission, you still have enough points for registration.  Don’t worry about replacing dampers, bushes and springs (even changing their rates) - they are regarded as service replacements; as long as the design is the same, you are fine.  What you can’t do while maintaining the points for the suspension is change to air springs, multi-link systems or start fitting modified arms like castor correcting welded radius arms. 

[miketomcat]

This changing parts is fine as long as the design doesn't change is not strictly true.

When I registered my ibex they wanted proof of where the parts came from. I sent them the 2 v5's of the cars I'd used plus receipts for all the new parts. They wanted me to prove which parts came from which vehicle so they could work out the percentage and then assign me an age related plate. Obviously with land rover this is impossible as nothing has useable serial numbers (most modern cars do so everything is traceable). In my case I wrote back saying this is not possible beyond me wrighting a list but I want a Q plate anyway so it's academic.

So legally speaking any part that is not original (excluding bushes, bearings etc) is counted on the points. So like I said originally what you want to do is not strictly legal. However as almost nothing on a land rover is traceable it's unlikely to ever be a problem. Especially given that 90% of land rovers out there are not original either.

Mike

 

[steve b]

@Daan maybe this should be in the Defender forum or International?

@miketomcat - I would suggest pre-registration SVA compliance is not the same as a roadside check by DVSA of vehicles on the road?

Steve

[Snagger]

21 minutes ago, miketomcat said:

This changing parts is fine as long as the design doesn't change is not strictly true.

When I registered my ibex they wanted proof of where the parts came from. I sent them the 2 v5's of the cars I'd used plus receipts for all the new parts. They wanted me to prove which parts came from which vehicle so they could work out the percentage and then assign me an age related plate. Obviously with land rover this is impossible as nothing has useable serial numbers (most modern cars do so everything is traceable). In my case I wrote back saying this is not possible beyond me wrighting a list but I want a Q plate anyway so it's academic.

So legally speaking any part that is not original (excluding bushes, bearings etc) is counted on the points. So like I said originally what you want to do is not strictly legal. However as almost nothing on a land rover is traceable it's unlikely to ever be a problem. Especially given that 90% of land rovers out there are not original either.

Mike

 

I think it is legal.  He is using a new like-for-like chassis, the original 1985 transmission, steering and suspension.  Of the assemblies that score points, only one axle and the engine are being swapped.  That falls well within the remit, and as I said, still allows for a transmission replacement with something better suited to the new engine.  All above board.  The body and electrical/dash system have nothing to do with it.

[miketomcat]

Sorry @steve b and @Snagger I disagree with both of you I don't think it's strictly legal, but as I keep saying I'd happily do it and it's not possible to prove the origin of the parts so it's never going to be a problem at a road side or any other check. Don't forget once a part has been fitted to another vehicle it's technically no longer part of the original vehicle. The biggest problem is it's all open to interpretation so we are going to err on it all being fine where as a policeman/an inspector might say a bolt is the wrong type. I have witnessed an inspector tell us to modify an e marked rear light (thus making it illegal) to pass an SVA! 

At the end of the day the op asked if it's legal ( I don't think it is). Would I do, it yes of course I would, the same as everyone else on here.

Mike

[Daan]

If there is a V5 present, you can basically swap anything like for like, if you have to apply for a new registration, they want to know where you got your parts. This needs to be proven with invoices. The dvla wants to avoid assisting stolen parts or vehicles getting back on the road.

[B reg 90]

It's in the chassis. No one will be able to tell what year the back tub is (85' or 86!) You own all the parts.

In the words of Tom Cruse in top gun - 'don't think, do'.

 

Adrian

[Snagger]

On 9/2/2023 at 2:19 PM, miketomcat said:

Sorry @steve b and @Snagger I disagree with both of you I don't think it's strictly legal, but as I keep saying I'd happily do it and it's not possible to prove the origin of the parts so it's never going to be a problem at a road side or any other check. Don't forget once a part has been fitted to another vehicle it's technically no longer part of the original vehicle. The biggest problem is it's all open to interpretation so we are going to err on it all being fine where as a policeman/an inspector might say a bolt is the wrong type. I have witnessed an inspector tell us to modify an e marked rear light (thus making it illegal) to pass an SVA! 

At the end of the day the op asked if it's legal ( I don't think it is). Would I do, it yes of course I would, the same as everyone else on here.

Mike

Mike, I built my 109 from two donor 109s on a new chassis.  It had mechanical parts from both and the DVLA repeatedly assured me after several enquiries that I could legally choose either original VINs as I had over three points in items from each.  I can assure anyone that once a chassis has been used or stamped with a VIN, it can only be used on that vehicle, but that point scoring parts from other donors are entirely legal as long as three points are added to the replacement chassis from parts used of the original vehicle to wear the VIN (ie not the other donor).  In other words, a new chassis and two complete assemblies from the original vehicle (engine, transmission, both axles together, suspension, steering) are all that is required for legal retention of the VIN.  The rules are quite different to SVA.

[mcc1979ian]

On 9/2/2023 at 8:36 AM, Snagger said:

Please check my understanding:

You have two similar 90s.  One has been a stalled project with new chassis, the other is now in need of work too.  You want to use parts of the running vehicle, primarily body and dash parts and the rear axle, to continue the restoration of the earlier vehicle with its new chassis?

Assuming the new chassis complies with the regs by being of similar spec to the original (and having been new and unused), then merely swapping out an axle and engine brings you eleven points (chassis 5, steering 2, suspension 2 and transmission 2) and you only need 8.  You will lose 2 points for not having both original axles and 1 point for the engine swap.  Even if you decide to replace the transmission, you still have enough points for registration.  Don’t worry about replacing dampers, bushes and springs (even changing their rates) - they are regarded as service replacements; as long as the design is the same, you are fine.  What you can’t do while maintaining the points for the suspension is change to air springs, multi-link systems or start fitting modified arms like castor correcting welded radius arms. 

Exactly that, to be fair most of the 85 has been used to keep the 86 going and the chassis is a brand new Richards like for like item

[mcc1979ian]

Cheers gents, looks like once I get my arse in gear and get my workshop built I’m finally gona get my 85 v8 up and running 🤞

[steve b]

Cool , look forward to the build. 

.........I have an '86 V8 90 on one of my many back burners waiting to be finished

Steve

[fmmv]

On 9/4/2023 at 8:10 PM, mcc1979ian said:

Cheers gents, looks like once I get my arse in gear and get my workshop built I’m finally gona get my 85 v8 up and running 🤞

My arse tends to jump out of gear; worn selectors I suppose. So also looking forward to it.

[rusty_wingnut]

I would also retain the other 90s logbook, early 90/110 arent far off being historic......