EV’s

[need4speed]

Been mulling the whole electric vehicles going on fire thing.

There’s nothing LION battery cells hate more than shock. No not electrical, mechanical shock loading. Which in turn got me thinking: how are the battery packs mounted? There isn’t much worse for mechanical shocks than rough UK roads. Also do all vehicle manufacturers mount the battery packs the same way? How are the packs isolated from shock ie potholes etc. 
 

Please don’t tell me they rely on the vehicles suspension?

Also, why do we not get vehicle specific information about what type went on fire? For example are they all Teslas or does it affect all manufacturers? Are some more prone than others?

[monkie]

Are you planning on getting one? I've had an EV (Tesla) since March for work. I've covered 20K miles in it to date all over the UK and I now wouldn't ever consider going back to an ICE car other than my Land Rover.

I don't know the answer to your question, but I'm sure it's been accounted for. We have a whole fleet of EVs at work (at least 250 by now if not more - a mixture of different ones, not just Tesla) and no one has burst into flames yet.

What about the batteries in mobile phones? They are most certainly subject to a lot of shock and people carry them in their pockets without a second thought.

 

[Daan]

The cells are not that bad on shock though, the packs are usually getting a shaker test and a crash test (50 G impact), after which the pack still needs to function. To be fair, the cells are pretty stable, especially cylindrical cells like the Tesla has.

Most packs are bolted solid to the car, Tesla even use the cells as a structural member which is pretty clever I'd say.

Most fires start with a bad electrical connection, a bolted connection that has relaxed over time or a bad welded connection. 

A bad connection gives higher resistance, gets hot and can lead to cells going in thermal runaway.

[Snagger]

I suspect the batteries are mounted with rubber bushes, like fuel tanks, but nothing more.  I have seen plenty of videos of strip downs (like Rich Rebuilds) or building of custom EVs and conversions, and there certainly isn’t any sign of fluid or gas filled dampers or complex mechanisms, just rigidly attached battery boxes with cells bolted inside, and I didn’t even see rubber bushes, though I’d be surprised if they aren’t used.

Before making any conversion or purchase, have a good look around the insurance markets.  More and more insurers are refusing EVs and those remaining are ramping up the premiums, often by triple or more.  They may become unaffordable or uninsurable in the near future.

[Daan]

First look at Tesla's new structural battery pack | Electrek

[FridgeFreezer]

If you want to see inside in detail, Munro Associates post a ton of teardowns on Youtube:

https://www.youtube.com/@MunroLive/videos

For example:

 

[Snagger]

I watched that a while back.  The foam made the strip down very difficult, and I wonder how it affects battery heat management (yes, I know they have coolant loops).  I suspect it also could hold moisture for longer, preventing the packs from draining out after a dunking.  Tesla obviously thought the benefits outweigh the costs, but benefits for whom?  Car manufacturers seem to be more and more interested in their own benefit and Les and less in that of their customers, failing to realise that in the long term, acting against your customers becomes self-harmful.

[monkie]

1 hour ago, Snagger said:

 More and more insurers are refusing EVs and those remaining are ramping up the premiums, often by triple or more.

I don't think this is necessarily down to a fire risk though - @Daan hit the nail on the head above with the comment about bad electrical connections which of course applies equally to 12v electrics in ICE cars. I understand that on some EVs when something fails and can't be repaired the car has been written off. We are still very much in the early days.

[Chicken Drumstick]

3 hours ago, monkie said:

Are you planning on getting one? I've had an EV (Tesla) since March for work. I've covered 20K miles in it to date all over the UK and I now wouldn't ever consider going back to an ICE car other than my Land Rover.

I don't know the answer to your question, but I'm sure it's been accounted for. We have a whole fleet of EVs at work (at least 250 by now if not more - a mixture of different ones, not just Tesla) and no one has burst into flames yet.

What about the batteries in mobile phones? They are most certainly subject to a lot of shock and people carry them in their pockets without a second thought.

 

I'm not against EV's. But the infrastructure does not exist and never likely too in our life times to be able to replace ICE cars for everyone. Just think about all those millions of people who do not have a drive way or dedicated parking.

As for fires, well just because yours hasn't set of fire, doesn't mean it isn't a real risk. Just do a Google search if you don't believe me.

[Chicken Drumstick]

20 minutes ago, monkie said:

I don't think this is necessarily down to a fire risk though - @Daan hit the nail on the head above with the comment about bad electrical connections which of course applies equally to 12v electrics in ICE cars. I understand that on some EVs when something fails and can't be repaired the car has been written off. We are still very much in the early days.

Most definitely is down to fire risk. I can't name names, but a firm was testing an electric HGV (which turned into a failure). The failure was partly due to the fact their insurance wanted something like 12x their annual premium for 1 month if the vehicle was to be stored on site, due to the fire risks of having the vehicle there.

[monkie]

20 minutes ago, Chicken Drumstick said:

I'm not against EV's. But the infrastructure does not exist and never likely too in our life times to be able to replace ICE cars for everyone. Just think about all those millions of people who do not have a drive way or dedicated parking.

As for fires, well just because yours hasn't set of fire, doesn't mean it isn't a real risk. Just do a Google search if you don't believe me.

I have one and drive miles and miles for work most days. I had loads of concerns about infrastructure before I had one and I can now categorically tell you from personal experience that this is not the case (in England). Any car can catch fire.

 

 

[FridgeFreezer]

2 hours ago, Chicken Drumstick said:

As for fires, well just because yours hasn't set of fire, doesn't mean it isn't a real risk. Just do a Google search if you don't believe me.

I read somewhere the plural of anecdote is not data... EV fires are big news because EV's are new technology and there's a lot of people who (for some reason) really HATE them and look for any reason for them to fail / that they should not exist. As if regular cars never catch fire or leak nasty fluids or have electrical problems. Just look at how desperate everyone was for that Luton fire to be an EV when it turned out to be a diesel Range Rover.

Yes, older generation batteries were bad and current ones are not perfect and there's a few challenges / changes of approach needed (EG firefighters learning some new stuff) but the safety thing is coming on in leaps & bounds, battery tech is moving fast (solid state are supposedly going into production in the next couple of years) and ultimately EV are the "least worst" answer to a lot of people's automotive needs.

[Snagger]

3 hours ago, monkie said:

I don't think this is necessarily down to a fire risk though - @Daan hit the nail on the head above with the comment about bad electrical connections which of course applies equally to 12v electrics in ICE cars. I understand that on some EVs when something fails and can't be repaired the car has been written off. We are still very much in the early days.

There seem to be many reasons behind it, but insurance is mandatory and becoming an issue for everyone, but especially EVs.  It is an important consideration if contemplating buying one (like any car).

[need4speed]

Some interesting views there. Expect no less from this forum! 
 

Regarding insurance however from what I understand it’s not just the potential fire risk, but rather the immediate cost of repair if an EV is involved in a decent shunt. The problem of course is that brokers are taking that out on everyone, not just EV owners.

[need4speed]

2 hours ago, FridgeFreezer said:

I read somewhere the plural of anecdote is not data... EV fires are big news because EV's are new technology and there's a lot of people who (for some reason) really HATE them and look for any reason for them to fail / that they should not exist. As if regular cars never catch fire or leak nasty fluids or have electrical problems. Just look at how desperate everyone was for that Luton fire to be an EV when it turned out to be a diesel Range Rover.

Yes, older generation batteries were bad and current ones are not perfect and there's a few challenges / changes of approach needed (EG firefighters learning some new stuff) but the safety thing is coming on in leaps & bounds, battery tech is moving fast (solid state are supposedly going into production in the next couple of years) and ultimately EV are the "least worst" answer to a lot of people's automotive needs.

Where did you find out it was a diesel rangie Fridge? I must admit I find that really hard to believe a diesel vehicle burned with such ferocity to cause that amount of damage. I could have even found it easier to believe if it was a petrol motor.

As you know chuck a burning match into a bucket of diesel and the match will go out.

I just found it really suspicious the way the initial reports of the incident were so eager to mention it was a diesel vehicle. When have you ever heard of a car fire being reported on like that. It’s usually just ‘a car fire’ or ‘a truck fire’ etc etc. It just felt to me like the powers that be were on a damage limitation exercise because their big push for everyone to go EV looked in jeopardy with more and more EV’s going on fire and in some cases taking a house or garage with them.

[Chicken Drumstick]

3 hours ago, monkie said:

I have one and drive miles and miles for work most days. I had loads of concerns about infrastructure before I had one and I can now categorically tell you from personal experience that this is not the case (in England). Any car can catch fire.

 

 

As said, I'm not against EVs, but my comment was very specific about people who do not have off the road parking, aka a driveway. I'm guessing you do. If you can charge at home it is a game changer. But lots and lots of people can't and never will be able too.

As for infrastructure, it depends on which part of the UK. Around London there are lots of charge points, but other places less so. Which means you do need to plan journeys differently or make stops you wouldn't have otherwise made. Some people might be fine with going places they don't want to go. But it isn't for everyone.

I think you are rather belittling the fire risk. While petrol is volatile, over 100 years of petrol powered cars have shown them to be quite resilient to fire. Electric cars make up a tiny proportion of the vehicles on the roads globally, yet there have been a high number of EV related fires. 

[bishbosh]

Not that I have, or will, test it, but according to my ex neighbour's dad who was a retired fire fighter, you could throw a match into a bucket of petrol and it would go out too.

I am more than a little sceptical of this assertion but willing to have it disproved by someone wiser braver stupider than me!  

[Chicken Drumstick]

2 hours ago, FridgeFreezer said:

I read somewhere the plural of anecdote is not data... EV fires are big news because EV's are new technology and there's a lot of people who (for some reason) really HATE them and look for any reason for them to fail / that they should not exist. As if regular cars never catch fire or leak nasty fluids or have electrical problems. Just look at how desperate everyone was for that Luton fire to be an EV when it turned out to be a diesel Range Rover.

Yes, older generation batteries were bad and current ones are not perfect and there's a few challenges / changes of approach needed (EG firefighters learning some new stuff) but the safety thing is coming on in leaps & bounds, battery tech is moving fast (solid state are supposedly going into production in the next couple of years) and ultimately EV are the "least worst" answer to a lot of people's automotive needs.

Well please don't label me as a hater. As stated I'm not against EV's. I had a Mustang Mach-E on demo recently and a MINI Electric prior to that. But none of this changes the risk profiles or reality of EVs.

Yes other cars catch fire too, although it is fairly rare considering the shear number of ICE vehicles globally and the distance they travel. EV's are involved in a disproportionally high number of fires considering the numbers of them. And when they do catch fire it is generally far worse due to thermal runaway. 

[Bowie69]

Done it with diesel, but not sure I am brave enough to do petrol! 

[monkie]

59 minutes ago, Chicken Drumstick said:

As said, I'm not against EVs, but my comment was very specific about people who do not have off the road parking, aka a driveway. I'm guessing you do. If you can charge at home it is a game changer. But lots and lots of people can't and never will be able too.

As for infrastructure, it depends on which part of the UK. Around London there are lots of charge points, but other places less so. Which means you do need to plan journeys differently or make stops you wouldn't have otherwise made. Some people might be fine with going places they don't want to go. But it isn't for everyone.

I think you are rather belittling the fire risk. While petrol is volatile, over 100 years of petrol powered cars have shown them to be quite resilient to fire. Electric cars make up a tiny proportion of the vehicles on the roads globally, yet there have been a high number of EV related fires. 

No, not at all belittling the fire risk - I actually think you might be with an ICE car?

A battery after all holds a high concentration of stored energy just like a fuel tank, if that energy is released in an uncontrolled way, you'll likely get a fire. My point about ICE cars isn't really realted so much to the fuel tank, but the 12V electrics. I think most of us have had close moments with our wiring on old Land Rovers - I know I have when working on the pre-heating system for the glowplugs and I accidentally earthed a live wire!

My experience with driving an EV is real world day-to-day driving large distances over England/Wales (draw a line from Norwich down to Swansea and I cover that whole area). I ofen stay over in hotels that don't have overnight charging so I am reliant upon the supercharging network which is awesome. I have also driven up to Scotland and again not had any issues charging. If I stop for a toilet break/bite to eat/phone call, I plug my car in to keep topped up.

Can you give some figures from a reliable source regarding spontaineous EV fires directly related to the battery?

 

I now look at it this way - imagine if we lived in a world where we had all been driving EVs for decades and it was all we knew but then for whatever the reason there was a shift to newly fangled petrol or diesel cars. Can you imagine the backlash and people making the following arguments? The Daily Mail would be having a field day!

• They are slow
• They smell
• The fuel smells
• The fuel is toxic
• Where can I buy petrol/diesel from?
• Who has a petrol pump in their garden?
• What if the fuel tank leaks?
• What if I run out of fuel?
• The engine is complex and will break down
• I need to get it serviced
• The fumes can kill you
• Look up a video of somone setting fire to can of petrol
• You actually have to get out of your car and pay for the petrol
• What if I put the wrong fuel in my car...

But today many of us accept all of the above as normal. One day very soon, we will accept EVs as normal and those of us who still drive round in ICE vehicles will be considered somesort of Fred Dibnah character.

 

[FridgeFreezer]

1 hour ago, need4speed said:

Where did you find out it was a diesel rangie Fridge?

There was a picture posted online with the number plate visible - by that point people had already run it through the DVLA website & gotten back that it was a ~2016 SDV6 I think.

The reason people were "keen" to mention it was a diesel was that, from the moment the fire was reported, the EV hater crowd had fired up their bandwagon and were loudly pronouncing across the internet that it was bound to be a Tesla or something

1 hour ago, need4speed said:

I must admit I find that really hard to believe a diesel vehicle burned with such ferocity to cause that amount of damage.

A car fire, no matter what sort of car, is a ferocious thing - surround that with 1000 other cars in a confined (multi-storey) space and you've got an inferno.

42 minutes ago, Chicken Drumstick said:

EV's are involved in a disproportionally high number of fires considering the numbers of them. And when they do catch fire it is generally far worse due to thermal runaway. 

I'd question the first statement (does anyone have reliable stats?) but certainly would not argue with the 2nd - an EV battery fire is undoubtedly a much worse situation than a regular ICE car fire, but I'm not sure that's very relevant to anything? A tanker truck fire is worse than an EV fire, but no-one's getting all butthurt about those on the interweb and writing articles about how they are stupid and should be banned.

The people that made gas lights said all this stuff about these new fangled electric light bulbs 100 years ago and it worked out in the end.

[Stellaghost]

1 hour ago, bishbosh said:

Not that I have, or will, test it, but according to my ex neighbour's dad who was a retired fire fighter, you could throw a match into a bucket of petrol and it would go out too. 

I would also be sceptical...

The problem with petrol as apose to diesel is that petrol gives off more vapour and this is what ignites very easily, ever tried sticking a naked flame over a petrol tank even after washing it out........

Regards Stephen

[Daan]

51 minutes ago, FridgeFreezer said:

does anyone have reliable stats?

This article seems to state mainly factual figures. It does not look bad for EV, but it does say there is not enough data of EV fires, because there are so few EVs, to make a good comparison:

 Electric Car Fire Risks Look Exaggerated, But More Data Required For Definitive Verdict (forbes.com)

[Chicken Drumstick]

1 hour ago, monkie said:

No, not at all belittling the fire risk - I actually think you might be with an ICE car?

A battery after all holds a high concentration of stored energy just like a fuel tank, if that energy is released in an uncontrolled way, you'll likely get a fire. My point about ICE cars isn't really realted so much to the fuel tank, but the 12V electrics. I think most of us have had close moments with our wiring on old Land Rovers - I know I have when working on the pre-heating system for the glowplugs and I accidentally earthed a live wire!

My experience with driving an EV is real world day-to-day driving large distances over England/Wales (draw a line from Norwich down to Swansea and I cover that whole area). I ofen stay over in hotels that don't have overnight charging so I am reliant upon the supercharging network which is awesome. I have also driven up to Scotland and again not had any issues charging. If I stop for a toilet break/bite to eat/phone call, I plug my car in to keep topped up.

Can you give some figures from a reliable source regarding spontaineous EV fires directly related to the battery?

 

Obviously I don't have figures on EV fires. I'm a person not a centralised database. But there seems to be far too many photos for it to be a rare thing. In the RC plane and car world LiPo has taken over from Nitro glow engines. But there are also a lot more fires these days too too due to batteries. Sometimes you don't need stats when the obvious is slapping you in the face.

As for EVs. Again you seem to be missing the part about charing at home and didn't answer if you have a driveway or not.

Supercharging is also only available to Tesla owners and not all EVs are Teslas and there are a finite number of supercharging points. Also cars like the Tesla (or the Mustang I had on demo) are not cheap cars!! The Mustang had a list price of £66,000. Lesser EV's often have less range. And even with supercharger points, you still end up going places you don't actually want to go, to spend time you don't want to spend waiting for charging. You clearly are fine with this, but it is ignorant to assume everyone would be happy.

[monkie]

1 hour ago, Chicken Drumstick said:

Obviously I don't have figures on EV fires. I'm a person not a centralised database. But there seems to be far too many photos for it to be a rare thing. In the RC plane and car world LiPo has taken over from Nitro glow engines. But there are also a lot more fires these days too too due to batteries. Sometimes you don't need stats when the obvious is slapping you in the face.

As for EVs. Again you seem to be missing the part about charing at home and didn't answer if you have a driveway or not.

Supercharging is also only available to Tesla owners and not all EVs are Teslas and there are a finite number of supercharging points. Also cars like the Tesla (or the Mustang I had on demo) are not cheap cars!! The Mustang had a list price of £66,000. Lesser EV's often have less range. And even with supercharger points, you still end up going places you don't actually want to go, to spend time you don't want to spend waiting for charging. You clearly are fine with this, but it is ignorant to assume everyone would be happy.

I don't want to get argumentative about this. I don't appreciate the use of the word ignorant especially when I'm not the ignorant one... as I have stated, I own and drive an EV so I am coming from a position of experience here, not feeling or stuff I read in the press.

I asked for some facts because you are talking about EVs catching fire, seemingly more so than ICE... maybe so, maybe not, I wondered if you could point to some facts and numbers to back your conviction on this.

I do have a drive way with a charger, so I accept that point, however I did state that I spend a lot of time away from home in the week with no access to overnight charging.

Yes, Tesla supercharging is for Tesla (a Tesla at least will direct to a choice of nearest charging points). This however isn't the only type of supercharging available. Colleagues and friends of mine have other EVs such as Volvo, VW, Hyundai and they use other types of supercharging no problem. 

I use public chargers 3 or 4 times per week and they are without exception en route to where I'm going or at my destination. So I don't recognize your point about chargers not being where I want to be.

New cars are not at all cheap, EVs more so I agree. But now many people like me who use an EV for work, they will in time filter down to the secondhand market.