200 / 300 TDi boost ring (dynamic timing advance)

[Nonimouse]

1 hour ago, Chicken Drumstick said:

In the past lots were made from soft cheap metal and would wear a groove in, messing with the fuelling and making them worse than not tampering at all. Also, you should be able to see the gains just by using the stock pin and changing its position, but you need to spend time setting it up. The modified one is just more of a generic setting. So yes, they can work. But could come with longer term risk of performance dropping off. And ultimately are a bit like applying a generic map to an ECU controlled engine. Meaning with a little more effort you can probably get better results not using one. All IMO and others may have different views.

Pretty much spot on

[Stinkfloyd]

14 hours ago, Chicken Drumstick said:

In the past lots were made from soft cheap metal and would wear a groove in, messing with the fuelling and making them worse than not tampering at all. Also, you should be able to see the gains just by using the stock pin and changing its position, but you need to spend time setting it up. The modified one is just more of a generic setting. So yes, they can work. But could come with longer term risk of performance dropping off. And ultimately are a bit like applying a generic map to an ECU controlled engine. Meaning with a little more effort you can probably get better results not using one. All IMO and others may have different views.

Cherry for that. I didn't realise some will wear a groove in. Lots to think about 🤔

[landroversforever]

33 minutes ago, Stinkfloyd said:

Cherry for that. I didn't realise some will wear a groove in. Lots to think about 🤔

I’ll leave the decision on aftermarket pin or not, but if you do, @NRS91at Steggs Supplies ones match the original Bosch material and process spec and would be where my money would go. 

[NRS91]

On 2/5/2024 at 1:18 PM, Nonimouse said:

I bought mine form Nick at Steg's supplies. Not being rude to Vulcan Bomber, but I know Nick's work and there are a lot of sub par pins and rings out there and I wanted to be sure.

The change in the pump cam timing is dark magic. It makes a big difference to some things and a small difference to a lot of things.

I don't run an aftermarket boost pin as I don't see the need. Neither do I see the need (or science) to run a twin inlet. I run 300 tdi nozzles on 200 injectors, but the flow is the same. Standard 200 nozzles would fuel 170+bhp easily, but are difficult to get.... I've polished the exhaust outlets and manifolds. Turbo is set to 1bar, and there is a cheap replacement intercooler fitted, that's a little bigger and flows better.

Pre ring I was getting 35-38 to the gallon (measured). Post ring, I'm getting a regular 36 mpg on the dot. Towing is easier. There is more 'off boost fuelling'. I've noticed more exhaust 'smoke' but it's burnt diesel, not unburnt (which I never had a problem with). The engine is quieter - noticeably so. Gearchanges are smoother ( I tend to double declutch down the box, and even that is easier)

Thanks  the 300 nozzles will have a bit more flow than the 200 which helps nicely!

On 2/6/2024 at 5:52 PM, Peaklander said:

The people that supplied my reconditioned FIP have so far honoured the warranty and recently checked the pump as I have done a topside check of my engine. I asked them about fitting this spacer and they have said "no", we don't advise, saying "The spacer puts the pump in permanent advance when it’s not supposed to be...".

I'm not sure that is correct because I believe that the ring actually increases the range of the advance by allowing the timing advance piston to move further at higher engine speeds. I presume this further advances injection. I don't think that the degree of advance is changed at lower engine speed.

If this is correct (please change my words if not), then I will at least tell / correct the supplier. Even so, I doubt that would change his mind. So if I fit the kit I now have, I won't have any further informal warranty support. Maybe that doesn't matter too much.

Also, how do I get that rear-most torx screw out with the FIP in place? It appears to be impossible. At least I haven't fitted my front timing case yet!

The dynamic timing advance spacer kit doesn't lock the timing advance, it still moves as intended and moves the same amount as other spec VE pumps which have shorter advance pistons to accommodate the extra travel naturally. But I don't blame him being cautious around unknown parts after all the dodgy boost pins we've seen.

3 hours ago, landroversforever said:

I’ll leave the decision on aftermarket pin or not, but if you do, @NRS91at Steggs Supplies ones match the original Bosch material and process spec and would be where my money would go. 

Info on how they work and prices available here  https://stegs4x4.co.uk/product-category/diesel-tuning/tdi-land-rover-tuning/

[Nonimouse]

Interestingly, the pump on my old T5 2.5 il5 was the same as on the 200/300 and it's boost pin was exactly the same profile and dims as the standard 200/300. I was told the Audi version of this lump had a better profile....

[landroversforever]

57 minutes ago, Nonimouse said:

Interestingly, the pump on my old T5 2.5 il5 was the same as on the 200/300 and it's boost pin was exactly the same profile and dims as the standard 200/300. I was told the Audi version of this lump had a better profile....

I also want to say I'd seen somewhere that the spacer is also found on some versions of the pump? 

[stevebus]

I bought a spacer from vulcan bomber, looks well made, in his instructions it does actually say "now for the fun part" being the fitting of it, I gave up,far to fiddly, even bought one of those ratchets from Sealey still not small enough to proper get in there, I've got a cam belt to do so I'll whip the pump off and do it that way its got to be easier, but many thanks @vulcan bomber all the best fella

[vulcan bomber]

With the best will in the world, I still can't understand where you get £50 from for these spacers. 

[Nonimouse]

15 hours ago, vulcan bomber said:

With the best will in the world, I still can't understand where you get £50 from for these spacers. 

Fair point. For me it's worth £50 for the quality, reliability and support from Nick. It's also purple and shiny. I generally avoid shiny on my vehicles, but this is hidden away, so it only becomes a natter of discussion when the bonnet is up. I do also like that the kit is all made up and ready to fit. Nothing has to be dressed, filed, etc and I don't have to find correct bolts.  Added to which, Nick has expensive tastes

[NRS91]

16 hours ago, vulcan bomber said:

With the best will in the world, I still can't understand where you get £50 from for these spacers. 

• Custom manufactured spacer and shim made in the UK by an accredited engineering company.
• Anodised for longevity.
• Genuine Bosch seals.
• High quality fasteners.
• Round the clock customer support.
• Website with secure payment gateways giving the customer payment protection.
• Comprehensive liability insurance.

It all soon adds up and despite rising overheads and material costs my prices haven't risen since 2017.

Sure they could be made cheaper. Someone on a manual mill using offcuts of material could knock out the spacer. Substituting the correctly machined shim for washers and swapping the genuine seals for aftermarket ones or even incorrect O rings would also cut costs.

I wouldn't be happy fitting that standard of product to one of my vehicles so I wouldn't sell it to someone else.

I try to make every product to the best quality and I think it's reflected in the 5/5 rating I have, the recommendations I get and the trust the community puts in me to be straight with them and give them honest advice.

While giving fair value to the customer I also think it's important to not undervalue myself, you can easily take yourself well below minimum wage spending hours on the admin and support (especially when self employed) and there needs to be a little in the pot for product development, I've got tons of stuff hidden away that hasn't made it to market yet but is slowly getting there.

[landroversforever]

IMO it's a fair price to me once you've paid for the bosch seals, machining time, material and coating. That's without the time packing/sending or stuff like design time and things like insurance and other business costs. Nick won't be seeing much of that in his pocket! 

[Nonimouse]

Having recently had a drive of a supercharged 200Sdi, I'm rather hoping that's could be one of Nick's secret projects..

[NRS91]

2 minutes ago, Nonimouse said:

Having recently had a drive of a supercharged 200Sdi, I'm rather hoping that's could be one of Nick's secret projects..

Haha that sounds fun! Do you know what supercharger they used?

[Nonimouse]

4 hours ago, NRS91 said:

Haha that sounds fun! Do you know what supercharger they used?

I believe it was an old Shorrocks, from a 2.25 series kit, supplied in the olden times

[NRS91]

Just now, Nonimouse said:

I believe it was an old Shorrocks, from a 2.25 series kit, supplied in the olden times

Ahh nice proper old school! Love it!

[Nonimouse]

The lump pulls like a train from tick-over, really smooth and it looks right.

A friend has one of the old kits for a 2.25 as well as one of the old turbo kits. He's been building a 2.8 pet for a while

[Diff]

I recently bought one of Vulcan Bomber's dynamic timing advance spacer rings. It comes with 3 shims, 4 seals (so you can experiment with different numbers of shims), 2 replacement bolts and instructions. Very nice quality:

Background:

I rebuilt the 300tdi in my 110 a year or so ago with a new billet turbo core, new standard head, new rings etc. The injector pump and injectors were left untouched and standard. As far as I can tell the pump has never been touched, no sign of the screws being tampered with. The timing is set per the manual using timing pins. Standard intercooler. No boost pin, no pump tweeks.

It has always run well, starts first time even without heater plugs (which aren’t wired in) even at minus 5 degrees C. It has always pulled strongly, and happy at motorway speeds.

However, despite being pleased with the 110's performance, I was intrigued to try the dynamic timing advance spacer ring. The spacer ring is a little fiddly to fit. I temporarily removed one of the bolts holding the pump mounting bracket to the engine block to make a bit more space. I needed to use a hammer and small cold chisel to start loosening the 2 torx cap head screws holding the timing advance mechanism cap on. I could then fiddle the screws out with my fingers and a T30 torx bit. Care is needed not to drop the coil springs as the cap comes off.

If you fit the new spacer with the 3 shims supplied, the pump advance mechanism is able to apply a few more degrees of total advance compared to standard at higher engine speeds, allowing each gear to 'rev a bit higher' and the engine pull a bit harder, without affecting the timing advance curve, thereby keeping the speed at which injection timing is advanced the same as factory. Base idle timing/low speed timing is unaffected. 

However, the instructions suggest trying the ring with 2 shims fitted rather than all 3. This reduces the tension on the springs slightly and effectively changes the advance curve so that the injection timing advances slightly earlier, as well as increasing the total advance as with 3 shims fitted. Base idle timing/low speed timing is unaffected. 

Refitting the timing advance mechanism cap, new spacer with the slightly longer supplied allen cap head screws is made easier with a cut down 5mm Allen key.

Results:

I have fitted the spacer with 2 of the shims and it has made a very noticeable difference. The engine is even more flexible in the midrange and the acceleration has improved too. It builds boost faster and it is hard to resist the temptation not to enjoy the performance gain all the time! Presumably the factory dynamic advance curve and total advance settings are fairly conservative, allowing us to add a bit more timing advance, perhaps because modern diesel fuel has a higher cetane rating than the engine design was set up to cope with originally?

Hope this is of interest, Regards, Diff.

[Anderzander]

Super helpful diff. Did you see any difference in how smooth it is or noise (as some other have mentioned) ? 

[Snagger]

I’m curious about these spacer kits.  Those that I have seen have the lozenge shaped spacer for the casing cap but also have a washer or circular shim for the spring.  Does the washer or shim not cancel increased depth of the casing cap?

[Diff]

Anderzander - difficult to say whether it is smoother or quieter. Seat of the pants feeling is that it 'may' be slightly smoother. Not sure I can say it is quieter, probably about the same.

Snagger - with Vulcan Bomber's kit, fitting the 3 circular shims (washers) when fitting the spacer/ring keeps the tension on the springs the same as it would have been without the new dynamic advance spacer/ring.

Other manufacturers may supply less shims/washers of different thicknesses in their kits, which also may or may not reduce tension on the springs. I can't compare, as I haven't looked at other manufacturers. 

Regards, Diff.

Edited March 2 by Diff

[Snagger]

Right, so the spacer with three washers is the same effect as standard, the spacer with two washers helps with a bit of smoothness at high rpm and with just one washer allows higher rpm too?  I wouldn’t want to increase the rpm, but having it run smoother and more economically would be nice.  I presume running without a washer at all is for the lunatics that hate engines…🤔

[NRS91]

A Dynamic Timing Advance spacer will have no effect on the governed RPM of the engine which is done by springs in the top of the pump.

What people are adjusting with the washers is the pre-load against the dynamic timing advance piston which adjusts how quickly the injection timing is advanced as the engine speed is increased. Too quick and the engine will knock and rattle, too slow and you will see no benefit.

My kit uses a custom machined shim which allows the piston to travel the full distance available without the spring becoming coil bound (like it would if the shim was too thick) but also keeps the most tension possible on the spring to keep the timing advance under control.

I wouldn't recommend running without a pre-load shim, you might as well advance the static timing which would lose some low end torque.

[Snagger]

Presumably the casing cap would prevent spring end float even without the washer/shim?  So, do the shims just control how much resistance decrease there is to the advance mechanism after fitting the spacer, ie there is a fixed spacer but you use the shims to tune its effect?

[stevebus]

I don't know if someone has put this up already but a firm called Fourby have put a little fitting video up on YouTube, that explains a little

[landroversforever]

Just now, stevebus said:

I don't know if someone has put this up already but a firm called Fourby have put a little fitting video up on YouTube, that explains a little

I personally avoid that bunch like the plague.