white90 Posted November 17, 2007 Share Posted November 17, 2007 I'm thinking it maybe time to have more of a class structure and had some thoughts(my own that's all) say Standard includes one winch/rollcage Standard +1 as above but plus another winch or one diff lock of some sort Modified as above but add another locker so 2 winches and two lockers/portal axles Unlimited these are the tray backs-buggy style vehicles as these are far easier to avoid damaging bodywork being as most of it has been removed, anything with a percentage of original body work removed (so bobtails are not included), tyre size no limit but no dumper type tyres to avoid ground damage All vehicles should have Tax/Mot though to allow road sections. thoughts opinions anyone? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ciderman Posted November 17, 2007 Share Posted November 17, 2007 Personaly im not realy bothered which class I enter , as long as i enjoy doing it . My thoughts about unlimited are , Ok fine so you have a truck designed to resist impact on damage and to acheive this some modifications have been made to suit , So why are bobtails exempt , Surely the whole idea of a bobtail is to reduce your body work hitting anything . And as for tyre sizes being unlimited , Well you will not be able to run an unlimited class on the same day as a standard class on the same site due to deeper rutting caused by taller and wider tyres therefore causing the standard vehicles to struggle even just gettingabout the site . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jules Posted November 17, 2007 Share Posted November 17, 2007 Only a idea I raced under these classes which is very similar to Tony's idea production class (totally stock with minimal engine mods and only shock and spring replacement allowed no suspension mount adjustments Super production class full body, but big shock mounts allowed eg 2.5" foxes or what ever and twins Modified (the biggest class) anything goes Trophy class (new comer) anything goes But each also had a engine size class but I wouldn't have thought there was any point as most cars a 2.5. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
najw Posted November 17, 2007 Share Posted November 17, 2007 Are these for events you are looking to run Tony or are you suggesting standardising all events? More classes = more trophies = more expense Also anything which relies on an element of subjectivity should be avoided as it only leads to debate/argument. I have strongly resisted proposals from the AWDC Chief Scrutineer that Class 3 and 2 vehicles should have an original silhouette as I feel it is way too hard to police fairly. Keep it simple I say! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve 90 Posted November 17, 2007 Share Posted November 17, 2007 More classes is just plain crazyness! The std +1 class that james runs is an excellent idea but the std and +1 classes already struggle for entry's. Why have another class added to it which will probably end up with just Jason and I competing in it??????????? plus it will devalue the Mod class effectively ending up with two classes which dont have any real level of competion!!!!!!!!! I go out for a day of fun and dont really take it too seriously so why start trying to nedlessly complicate things with the only end result (as I see it) beeing a poorer event with cklasses so poorly represented you get a trophy just for turning up? B.T.W. Why would a Bobtail not be in this new class??????? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
white90 Posted November 17, 2007 Author Share Posted November 17, 2007 Thats why this thread is here to Discuss not gospel, just some suggestions written down. Maybe move Bobtails into one of the other classes. Niel I'm not planning to run any comps but have done and could do so again. Trophies are nice to have not need to have. Steve and Jase, I too enjoy entering and do so for the enjoyment only. do you consider the Traybacks and buggies have an advantage over a vehicle retaining its body work? or is it fairly level? Traybacks have flourished and along with the buggy style seem to have pushed the competition level far higher. It is not meant to be an argumentative post just some thoughts I've had whilst sitting here looking at the Slindon Pics and after seeing the response to James more basic/entry level events, trying to avoid putting new people off from entering. as for tyre sizes I was leaving them open to also allow more entrants. Steve after a quick re read what about Standard- included up to 1 winch/locker/rollcage Modified-as above but add another locker so 2 winches and two lockers/portal axles unlimited-these are the tray backs-buggy style vehicles as these are far easier to avoid damaging bodywork being as most of it has been removed, anything with a percentage of original body work removed, tyre size no limit but no dumper type tyres to avoid ground damage Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve 90 Posted November 17, 2007 Share Posted November 17, 2007 I think that the tray backs are an advantage in the fact that if you do hit something it doesn't destroy your truck but there is nothing that can be acheived by a tray back that cant by a truck cab/bob'd 90. Its really no different to a fully caged rear end like the ones that many people in the challenge scene use , so really they also should be in the Tray back class you propose. These types of truck are a result of the comps moving to a higher level and not the cause of the comps moving to a higher level. The tray back is no different to the wing bars many are fitting. I competed in a 90 truck cab with a tub before I tray'd it and did so quite successfully. As for the re jig of the classes, If you take one of James's events for example that would give you 2-3 vehicles in the Unlimited, The Modified with a large part of the competitive vehicles taken away which would make it a poorer class and std as it is now. Is that a step forwards or backwards? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
white90 Posted November 17, 2007 Author Share Posted November 17, 2007 all points are valid Steve any suggestions or do you just think leave as is? the take up on James more basic event thread tells a story of people wanting to start out not be put off by thinking events are too difficult. this was discussed some time ago on D44 never seemed to get any further than an argument between portal and big tyres groups. shame as moving forwards isn't always bad and the vehicles etc have moved on so much recently. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJIbex Posted November 17, 2007 Share Posted November 17, 2007 Personaly im not realy bothered which class I enter , as long as i enjoy doing it . Agree with the above. I also don't care about position - I usually come last! Time & distance are more of a concern to me; then cost. I can't do anything that involves Friday/Monday on travel or event. I would struggle to do 2 day weekend; I really need to be able to drive to, do event, drive home all in a Sunday. Mark. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simon red90 Posted November 17, 2007 Share Posted November 17, 2007 i'd see sence in something along the lines of: standard: standard vehicle shadow, one winch, no traction aid. cages ok. modified: standard vehicle shadow, up to two winches, traction aids and cages ok. special: non standard vehicle, unlimited modifications, hydraulic steering etc. the only thing i can see that would cause a problem is when a vehicle like a 90 truck cab is fully (all over) protected with a cage. the effectivly you have body armour which is in effectivly what you achieve with a tray back. some may complain? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bull Bar Cowboy Posted November 17, 2007 Share Posted November 17, 2007 I’m in two minds as to whether we need to change anything. Often we see the same faces on to podium ……… is that because their vehicle is that much superior ? ……….. I think not ………. Is it because they are an experienced team that understand each other and have worked together for some considerable time …………… yes, I think that comes into it……. Is it because the driver knows exactly where he is going to place the vehicle and is it because the winch monkey knows exactly what to rig and when ………and they probably do it automatically without argument or discussion………….. yes, I think that also plays a large part………. I don’t like naming names but let’s just take two very successful teams we know on here ………. one from the past, and one from the present…… Paul W & Simon Pearson…………….. Jason Farr and Paul M (Lardy)……………….. you could give these guys a motorised pram and they would still be on top of the game……….. but is it because their vehicles are that much superior to give them consistent results ………. I think not ………………. just very good teamwork, experience, a full understanding of the role responsibility, and knowing each others capability …………..I guess in that order Let the flames begin............. Ian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orgasmic Farmer Posted November 18, 2007 Share Posted November 18, 2007 Except Lardy wouldn't fit in a pram and there would be nowhere for the cider.... I'm not helping much am I? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
honitonhobbit Posted November 18, 2007 Share Posted November 18, 2007 Jase and Lardy are the Laurel and Hardy of the Challenge scene Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Exmoor Beast Posted November 18, 2007 Share Posted November 18, 2007 One class. Everyone equal. Winners are decided in the pub at the end of the day. everyone has a laugh. especially when someone in a series 2 with 7.50 SATs and a tired X9 beats someone who has blown £20,000 on orange stuff I can't see winch challenges ever being 'fair' as such, theres too many variables. Will Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ciderman Posted November 18, 2007 Share Posted November 18, 2007 Jase and Lardy are the Laurel and Hardy of the Challenge scene "Now thats another fine mess youve gotten me in too" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jules Posted November 18, 2007 Share Posted November 18, 2007 One class.Everyone equal. Winners are decided in the pub at the end of the day. everyone has a laugh. especially when someone in a series 2 with 7.50 SATs and a tired X9 beats someone who has blown £20,000 on orange stuff I can't see winch challenges ever being 'fair' as such, there's too many variables. Will One class would wipe out new comers full stop. IMHO I'm too competitive to enter something I don't think I can win but I will not be competing again for few years Nice thought though with separate classes that people think they stand a chance of doing will in they will go for it and numbers will increase with time I still think the Devon 4x4 Toyota did really well and proved that no matter what engine, no matter what 37"+ tyres you have, no mater what portal or Ashcroft axles, no matter what your wallet thinks Driving skill and Team work wins compations I watched far superior trucks fail on stage were a standard class trucks flew through. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ciderman Posted November 18, 2007 Share Posted November 18, 2007 I agree that some of it is down to the vehicle , But the huge majority is down to the team , knowing , the vehicle and what it can and cant do , And trusting each other in any situation , without even talking about it , to have an understanding on whats what . But most of all the urge to keep going and forgetting how everyone else is doing . In fact we often compete in a full bodied hard top which still does remarkably well . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve 90 Posted November 18, 2007 Share Posted November 18, 2007 One class would wipe out new comers full stop. Why should it put people off??? Would you start something new and expect to win first time?? Its about going along, Testing the water, Seeing how you do and then building on that and improving as you gain more experience. Some people will never win anything but still go out and have a good time, quite possibly better than those who are on the podium. Should they stay at home because they cant win? I think not, Just get out there and enjoy yourself, Aim to steadily improve your results over a season. If you go in to a new type of sport and expect anything more than to be pleased with yourself if you finnish then your going about it the wrong way. Its about knowing you did what you could and not about the results. As for the vehicle, If you have a well prep'd vehicle with the basic's (good tyre's and a decent winch) you can atleast be competitive if not win. I know coz when I first started thats all we had. The main thing is not to waste time shouting at each other and wondering what to do but also dont rip and tear in the wrong direction. As has been said in many threads above its Team work, good judgement and ability that counts for atleast 75% of your final result. Back to the class thing......... Maybe the classes could do with a bit of a re-vamp, Personally I dont think there is much wrong with them as they are. Try going to the Muddy truckers, Tay forest Challenge (which BTW we finnished second ahead of some hugely superiour vehicles), etc etc where there is only one unlimited class. But I do think that on an event with any less than 20 cars 3 classes is the absolute maximum and any more would be a mistake, There's nothing worse than competing in a class with only a few cars. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gelf Posted November 18, 2007 Share Posted November 18, 2007 im building a trayback at the moment...... but just because i keep denting rear bodywork. i have no lockers and only one winch....... but should i want to have ago at an event once in a while, i would be in unlimited. i think that there should be more challenge days for people who just want to have ago like me....... as its not something i want to do seriously, but have enjoyed some play days where optional punches have been put out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jules Posted November 18, 2007 Share Posted November 18, 2007 Why should it put people off??? Would you start something new and expect to win first time?? Its about going along, Testing the water, Seeing how you do and then building on that and improving as you gain more experience. Some people will never win anything but still go out and have a good time, quite possibly better than those who are on the podium. Should they stay at home because they cant win? I think not, Just get out there and enjoy yourself, Aim to steadily improve your results over a season. If you go in to a new type of sport and expect anything more than to be pleased with yourself if you finnish then your going about it the wrong way. Its about knowing you did what you could and not about the results.As for the vehicle, If you have a well prep'd vehicle with the basic's (good tyre's and a decent winch) you can atleast be competitive if not win. I know coz when I first started thats all we had. The main thing is not to waste time shouting at each other and wondering what to do but also dont rip and tear in the wrong direction. As has been said in many threads above its Team work, good judgement and ability that counts for atleast 75% of your final result. Back to the class thing......... Maybe the classes could do with a bit of a re-vamp, Personally I dont think there is much wrong with them as they are. Try going to the Muddy truckers, Tay forest Challenge (which BTW we finnished second ahead of some hugely superiour vehicles), etc etc where there is only one unlimited class. But I do think that on an event with any less than 20 cars 3 classes is the absolute maximum and any more would be a mistake, There's nothing worse than competing in a class with only a few cars. OK Agreed there is nothing much wrong with the classes as is, I didn't start the topic I only made suggestions. I may have miss understood the topic I'm refuring more championships classing not single events Is it fair to pitch an experience challenge prototype truck against stock SJ410 with a 17yr old new comer and his mate. I like backing the under dog but that's going a bit far If there is no incentive for the newer competitors or for those that can't afford the more competitive equipment. Whats the point the current system pitches like for like and competitors will bend and push rules till the end of time competing against each other but for me that's what it all about Also not everyone wants to smash a truck to bits competing that's why the standard classes are there its the same for comp safari and trialing. I disagree about one class for all as I think competitors would become dishartened very quickly with coming last all the time against the big boys as its simply not fair. If I'm wrong then fine but I stick by what I think as it grows then so will the need for classes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
will_warne Posted November 18, 2007 Share Posted November 18, 2007 What about having to run a control tyre? It'd stop a lot of bickering about allowed sizes and would making life a lot easier as far as classes go (standard and modified and that's your lot!). I know some people will throw they're hands into the air but its a standard practice in most areas of motorsport. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LR90 Posted November 18, 2007 Share Posted November 18, 2007 Well for me I'm happy with two types of 'event', rather than multiple classes, which is what we are starting to see with Shire, HBRO and James introducing non competitive events. For those like myself that just want fun a day out chasing punches for the hell of it with no prizes for most points and no (please drop the tyre size limit James) classes this is a great way to have fun and a nice easy entry to the sport. For those more competitive types then the current challenge events seem to offer plenty of scope but why have classes? ARC have been down this route and well meaning rules like silhouette only lead to more specialized vehicles (such as tomcats) that result in near stock vehicles competing against highly specialized trucks even in the 'entry level' classes. So why have classes? They don't make entry to the sport any easier and can limit innovation. We have to face that for those wishing to compete they need to compete head to head, with all the effort of cost it entails, and not look for a set of classes that makes everyone a winner (which rather devalues being a winner anyway ). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dollythelw Posted November 19, 2007 Share Posted November 19, 2007 Class structures seem to work well but theres always scope for abuse - wherever there are rules there will be loopholes that can be exploited Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Les Brock Posted November 19, 2007 Share Posted November 19, 2007 My take on it should be... Standard - 1 winch Modified - 2 winches/ traction aids 35 inch tyre max Special - Portals/Hydo steer/+ 35 tyres Body should'nt really matter, but the tray back vs 90 truck senario cab obviously there will be less damage to the tray back but thats the only real advantage IMHO A 90 truck cab will have the manoverable ability over a 100 inch tray back for example so it evens out ...to a point the real benefit comes with having the extra axle clearance/tyre height/hydro steer and with these mods you are going away from a road going vechicle again IMHO....... So............any one need a Biatch next year ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark90 Posted November 19, 2007 Share Posted November 19, 2007 If there's enough classes everyone should be able to go home happy with a class win pot for the mantle piece without having to compete against other vehicles that may be better (or just have better drivers/bitches). Can we have a class for Red 4.2 V8 auto 90's with green doors. I reckon I could be competative then, maybe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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