Winch Sails, Do we need them with Synthetic rope?

[alan kemp]

Chassis end (front) radius arm bush Alan fits ideally

Cheers, I shall try that tomorrow at West Harptree.

[j90 mud]

this applies to most of the current winch based uk competitions i vote NO

i am sorry to agree that winch sails are more trouble than they are worth especially on short and or steep pulls.whilst i have no trouble with any organiser that stipulates helmets, gloves and so on sails dont serve any purpose other than to show where a cable is.

for me i would happily provide a test motor to test to destrcution with some old synthetic winch lines under video recording ,with a selection of winch sails and try them in different locations on the rope.

i now consider synthetic ropes to be almost a wear and tear item and wash and inspect and replace as nessacary after each event.indeed the damage to almost all the plasmas (generic wording ) at manby this year was horrific and the rope was very badly abraided and damaged in several places.do we do like a lot of folk do and use it till it is worn out or breaks? should any organiser inspect all ropes for simple condition before , during an event.

should a team be allowed to start an event if their cable is tied to the hook and not spliced?

oh and yes i have snapped a rope once or twice and if they hit you they dont hurt at all.

[treebloke]

Any one who competes would surely vote no. Problem is convincing the people who make the rules to agree and you will only do that if you can alter the view of the insurance company, without their endorsement it will never happen.

Twenty years ago you could climb a tree using a sit harness untill a guy got knocked out one day while up a tree and HSE got in on the act and wanted everyone to wear full a body harness as a fall arrest system, an almost identical scenario of sail or no sail.

Fortunately for us the compremise was a sit harness with leg loops which is now described as work positioning, not fall arrest. The harness and rope system we use is there to position the climber within the tree so he can achive a suitable position to work in, he should then attach a strop while in that work position. Not a million miles from sail or no sail.

Come up with a good agrument, present it to the right people and we are away.

On the subject of first aiders, first aid kits and administering first aid, each event should have at least two first aiders who are minimum appointed persons which is only a one day course. I wouldnt mind betting there are more than this at any event anyway but it would be good to know that when things go tits up some one can potentially keep you alive until you are definately..............dead . A sordid subject but don't think it will not happen because it already has and the person most at risk is the co-driver.

[j90 mud]

yep i got to agree the hse are the new police and they are often so far from reality that it beggars belief. i now have to risk asses so many things that are common practice just to keep our HS man happy .ist aid is a differnet thing to winch sails many comps dont have a recognised accident procedure.when i have marshalled at the daffodtil the organisers need as many 1 st aid trained folk as possible and they check your details and provide them to the event insurers, the tay commitee stress the need for sensible actions as hospital and ambulances are not near at hand.

we must bear in mind that for the hobby to go forward we need sensible rules across the board at all events unlike at the moment were many groups have never seen a winch challenge event.

[landroversforever]

I think the sail is supposed to weigh 1 kg, the pockets are for adding weight.

Stupid design really, Means its not attached permanantly and can fall out?

I can see an arguement for having them such as to mark a winch line passing over a track/road, But. where the sail keeps sliding down and needs to be moved...surely common sense tells you that its a bad idea to have the sail there if the CoDriver has to go nearer the 'danger' to keep it in place.

I also think winch sails have more of a use on P&P as marshals dont know if the user has a clue what they are doing. On a challenge, the competitors know what they are doing, if/when another vehicle is near they should both we aware of what is going on in the area.

And those who can't upgrade to synthetic for cost reasons...why not trade in the wire rope at the scrap man?? would put a few quid towards the new rope

[najw]

I saw a great example today at West Harptree, a conventional winch sail was sucked into the fairlead which meant the vehicle had to be held on a 45° slope (on a ground anchor) while the driver and co-driver got a knife to cut the sail to bits to extract it. There was no other way to extract it and the whole exercise left so many people exposed to a wide variety of dangers.

Also - who ever suggested a series of tests to find out what effect the sail actually has is spot on - there is a lot of hypothesising on this thread but I feel a little more testing needs to be done to see what effect sail or no sail has in variety of situations.

[Paul Wightman]

Well said Neil, it's good to see an organiser considering the validity of a rule rather than rules is rules or it's my competition and I say what goes!

Bit short on water this time?

[yella 90]

If we have to keep them, and I suppose we will, where can I get that ball I have seen that prevents the sail from going through the fair lead. Something lightweight from a fishing trawler perhaps?

alan, there only plastic so would crush i guess

but what plasma are you running, i can get you a couple from work and give them boothy for when he next see's you

[alan kemp]

We used a poly bush from Disco 2, much bigger than a 90 one, we have a wide fairleads on the front and the bush plus sail went into the winch drum. The fishing trawler things I have seen are about 120mm dia with a hole through the middle, They would crush but would spring back I think. Possibly made of foam coated in plastic??

I am sure the testing of winch sails could be done easily, with video. We did it to destruction on several ropes but without winch sails. Could combine it with the strain gauge again but fixed at the winch end this time. Saley????

[bobtail4x4]

On the subject of first aiders, first aid kits and administering first aid, each event should have at least two first aiders who are minimum appointed persons which is only a one day course. I wouldnt mind betting there are more than this at any event anyway but it would be good to know that when things go tits up some one can potentially keep you alive until you are definately..............dead . A sordid subject but don't think it will not happen because it already has and the person most at risk is the co-driver.

I know that of the howling wolf marshalls at least 3 of us are trained first aiders.

[sean f]

I saw a great example today at West Harptree, a conventional winch sail was sucked into the fairlead which meant the vehicle had to be held on a 45° slope (on a ground anchor) while the driver and co-driver got a knife to cut the sail to bits to extract it. There was no other way to extract it and the whole exercise left so many people exposed to a wide variety of dangers.

Also - who ever suggested a series of tests to find out what effect the sail actually has is spot on - there is a lot of hypothesising on this thread but I feel a little more testing needs to be done to see what effect sail or no sail has in variety of situations.

This is where risk assements come in, many people here seem to work in industries where filling in risk assements are a part of life so will know what I am talking about.

An assement of hazard and risk is made and measures put in place to lessen them.

In this case a sail is used to prevent the rope flying around in the event of it snapping (I know this is under depate) but this potentially exposes people to another risk of it becoming tangled in the winch or having to move it with the cable under stress. If a formal risk assement is made that the risk of it becoming tangled is greater then the risk of the rope snapping that is an argument for not using a sail IN THAT PARTICULAR CASE. Another case of winch across a track on the level it maybe desided that the risk of it becoming tangled is low and the benefit for others being able to see it makes the sail a good idea.

In most industry formal paperork needs to be filled in for this, but most of the time it comes down to common sense, winching up a slope will result in the sail sliding down. Outside of industry the same type of assement is usually done but not actually written down, normally based on experience i.e. will that tree support the load form the winch etc.

[Milemarker Type S]

As has already been said- it is generally the insurance companies that insist on winch sails being used not challenge organisers... Insurance companies will continue to do so until they are convinced otherwise- and to do so would require some actual evidence that they do nothing to reduce risk when using synthetic winch lines (or that they in fact increase risk...) I cannot see that anyone would be willing to finance any formal research (that would be recognised by insurance companies) as no companies have anything to gain from us not using them... so we may be stuck with them... Bu@@er...

[najw]

it is generally the insurance companies that insist on winch sails being used not challenge organisers...

Our insurance is provided by the MSA and they make no requirements for winch sails. In our case it is historic club regulations (from pre-synthetic rope days) that are still in place and could be amended should we choose.

It may be a different case from organisers who source private insurance cover.

If traditional winch sails are not suitable for many of the scenarios we see, is there not a case for a re-design of the sail to make it more suitable?

[Turbocharger]

I've not voted because I don't really compete, but there are two reasons for having a sail: to stop "whip" when the thing breaks, and to make the rope more visible to everyone else.

I think everyone agrees:

• sails are required for wire ropes to suppress whip when the rope breaks
  
• sails aren't necessary for reducing whip on synthetic ropes, but can be useful as markers
  
• sails are sometimes considered necessary with all ropes by insurance companies and risk assessors, to reduce confusion over the 'rules', and to reduce the chance of someone who needs to use a sail, not doing.
  
• however, sails can get sucked into fairleads and expose co-drivers to more danger than bystanders had from a rope in use with no warning. This may not have been considered in the original risk assessment.
  

So it seems we need a way of marking the rope which can't get sucked into the fairlead, or doesn't matter if it does. Ideally we'd make the rope visible along its whole length.

How about a hi-vis rope? Or a standard rope with lengths of hi-vis material hanging from it? I threaded some ribbon into my rope so I can tell when to stop with 6 wraps remaining on the drum. Something like this could solve the issue?

[Dave W]

The CCDA (governing body for off road events in Australia) tend to be ahead of the UK in terms of regulations and over regulation of challenge events, partly because they incorporate far more speed into their events. Contrary to an earlier poster, the CCDA haven't allowed the crew to touch a winch sail on a live rope for years, that includes via a string/dog lead.

Having a rolled up winch sail is completely pointless, they are there to add wind resistance, not weight, so rolling them up defeats the purpose. I've never been convinced that a winch sail will make a blind bit of difference to a rope breakage anyway and I think it normally is used on the grounds that "it may not do any good but it doesn't do any harm either".

Current CCDA regs, IMV, resolve a lot of the problems/arguments with winch sales and plasma. They simply state that a winch sale must be used at all times and that it must be permanently attached to the hook. I think the reasoning behind this is that plasma tends, when it snaps, to fly along the direction of the pull, If it snaps at the vehicle end then it shouldn't cause any problems because crew have to be at least 1.5 meters away from a rope under tension (something like that anyway). You simply place the blanket over the rope at the hook end and tie wrap the closest send to the hook.. job done for the rest of the competition. (As shown in my avatar)

If the winching point gives way, the winch blanket will attempt to slow the hook down as it heads back towards the vehicle. Being attached to the hook means it's at the most important part of the rig and it can't be sucked into the fairlead in normal circumstances. The blanket can be scrunched up but cannot be rolled. I have a suspicion that, in the next year or so, the requirement for a winch sail on synthetic ropes will be dropped altogether by the CCDA.

As with all "safety" requirements the main thing is to make sure that the safety device itself doesn't increase the likelihood of an accident. Something that I've seen happen too many times with marshals insisting that a navigator climbs across a steep drop in front of a Land Rover hanging off the end of a winch rope because the sail is no longer in the centre third of the rope because it's slid down towards the motor.

The MSA have recently reviewed the challenge event "problem" and have come up with a new permit type for challenges. This has been looked at to try and get away from challenge event organisers running events under MSA permit types that weren't really designed for the purpose. The new event type, when it becomes available to clubs, seems to be very flexible and doesn't require the use of helmets, winch sails or even roll cages although event organisers can still add their own additional regulations of course. We'll have to see if it comes out of the next stages in the same form or gets tightened up a bit.

[Ced]

@ Alan,

Are you looking for this maybe ??

www.winchsaver.com

But, I know some guy's using this, and those rubber bals get cut also ..........

[pigster]

sorry mate - I can only bitch for one person at a time...

Mythbusters tried to cut a pig carcass in half with a wire rope. It was set up to do maximum damage with stupid amounts of strain before the break. It barely marked the pig over several tests.

Perhaps anyone using wire rope should get a pig to bitch.

[swanny]

i thought that if you were winching across a track then you had to put out a road triangle ?.

swanny.

[D9OSV]

There are many ways of tackling this thorny issue.

One is to use a higher mounting point for the hook to stop the blanket being dragged through as the cable is stowed.

The other is to use a more open fairlead to allow the winch blanket to be easily removed should the worst happen.

The winch blanket should in theory should never get into the winch when half down a cable in use, that is usually caused by a co driver being incorrectly positioned, laziness or tiredness. But all of these things do and will happen.

The rest is personal choice and that of the organisation running the event.

Jim

Ps: Who voted "Yes" blankets should be used with synthetic rope Must have come from the wrong side of the Gene pool ....Joke

[alan kemp]

@ Alan,

Are you looking for this maybe ??

www.winchsaver.com

But, I know some guy's using this, and those rubber bals get cut also ..........

That would do it, thanks Ced.

Swanny, you are right, we allways use a triangle when winching across a road, its in the rules so why do we need to use the sail as a marker. Using the sail as a marker is not a good argument anyway, no one should be anywhere near a loaded winch line, the co-driver is allways between the car and the anchor point so "eff off out of the way you knob" should be sufficient to warn anyone daft enough to get any where near a winching truck.

[general-confusion]

I voted not needed