ThreePointFive Posted February 22, 2009 Share Posted February 22, 2009 Hi all, I'm having trouble with my handbrake in that it's not holding the vehicle since the problem of it being frozen last month and refusing to move. Since then, it's never held as strongly as before and the lever feels very slack and too easy to operate - like it's having little effect on the handbrake. I've taken off the prop and the drum and to my surprise there was very little mud inside. With someone operating the lever, I can see that the shoes are adjusting tiny amounts and only on one side mostly. I've taken them off, pulled out the pistons and out fell the rollers. I cleaned them up, put it back together the best way I could and still nothing. How can I tell if the cable itself is stretched or at fault? It appears to be adjusting but the piston inside the centre of the expander doesn't look like it has full travel, released or engaged even though now the lever itself can be pulled fully upwards, something that was a real struggle previously. It also doesn't feel as though the cable fully retracts when the lever is released, as it has some springy feeling as though the cable is still pulled out, if that makes sense. How far should the shoes move? Also, as they fell out before i was able to see how they were installed, how do the rollers fit on/around the pistons? There's a slot the same size of the length of the rollers which I thought they may fit into, but it's incredibly difficult to get them back into the expander like this. The haynes doesn't show the expander taken apart to this level. Any thoughts on which part is more likely to be to blame? New expanders are near £50 so I'd rather not buy new parts if they're not definitely the cause. Cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anderzander Posted February 22, 2009 Share Posted February 22, 2009 I can't provide much help, sorry. I would say though if you are going to start throwing money at it I'd buy an X brake. I intend to. I'm not sure even when they are sorted that they are entirely reliable. Mine sometimes fades terribly - and there is nothing wrong with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
western Posted February 22, 2009 Share Posted February 22, 2009 could be the inner cable is seperating [multi strands] & catching on the inside of the outer sleeve, the expander piston that the cable is attached to doesn't move very much to put the brake on or off, as above if your going to spend out on new parts, go for the x-brake, it's much better & always works. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThreePointFive Posted February 22, 2009 Author Share Posted February 22, 2009 I was going to put in the initial post that I can't buy an X brake, I've just shelled out for a winch so my new toys budget is used up for the next six months at least. I do see the logic and I know it's got to be the best solution, but this problem isn't even related to the shoes themselves, which have plenty of 'tread' left. I think that replacing the cable would be the most inexpensive option to try even if it doesn't work, but any ideas as to why this would happen just after the frozen-on situation I found it in last month I'm all ears to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
western Posted February 22, 2009 Share Posted February 22, 2009 wondering if you have the sliders that the shoes sit in fitted the correct way round, as the inner end of the 2 pistons has a ramp, deeper at one end, which should face the front of the expander body, I'm playing with the old expander from my 110, if I fit the shoe piston with the ramp deep end facing the rear of the body, when I pull the link rod with my fingers lightly on the piston ends where the shoes would locate, I can feel the pistons/rollers run down the ramp & effectivly release the brake, if I put the pistoms with the deep end facing forward of the expander body, I can't push the pistons in, so that equals a good parkbrake operation. hth Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmy Two-Jacks Posted February 22, 2009 Share Posted February 22, 2009 Hi all,I'm having trouble with my handbrake in that it's not holding the vehicle since the problem of it being frozen last month and refusing to move. Since then, it's never held as strongly as before and the lever feels very slack and too easy to operate - like it's having little effect on the handbrake. I've taken off the prop and the drum and to my surprise there was very little mud inside. With someone operating the lever, I can see that the shoes are adjusting tiny amounts and only on one side mostly. I've taken them off, pulled out the pistons and out fell the rollers. I cleaned them up, put it back together the best way I could and still nothing. How can I tell if the cable itself is stretched or at fault? It appears to be adjusting but the piston inside the centre of the expander doesn't look like it has full travel, released or engaged even though now the lever itself can be pulled fully upwards, something that was a real struggle previously. It also doesn't feel as though the cable fully retracts when the lever is released, as it has some springy feeling as though the cable is still pulled out, if that makes sense. How far should the shoes move? Also, as they fell out before i was able to see how they were installed, how do the rollers fit on/around the pistons? There's a slot the same size of the length of the rollers which I thought they may fit into, but it's incredibly difficult to get them back into the expander like this. The haynes doesn't show the expander taken apart to this level. Any thoughts on which part is more likely to be to blame? New expanders are near £50 so I'd rather not buy new parts if they're not definitely the cause. Cheers I had this same problem and I posted for some help and got lots of support but I think that I had the pistons facing the wrong way so that the gradient went the wrong way and stopped the system working. Although I have to say that the pistons dont need to move much if you set it up right with the adjusting bolt on the back of the transfer brake drum. I found that when I had cleaned and greased the bits it was awkward to get it back together. I found a good thick elastic band held the expander and pistons in place whilst I replaced the shoes.I also had no resistance at the lever and found that my handbrake cable had streched a little and that didnt help. Best of luck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Milemarker Type S Posted February 22, 2009 Share Posted February 22, 2009 Sam- possiblity of a few issues... It sounds like you have put the expander back together the wrong way around- easy to do I am affraid... I have to really think about it every time I put them back together!!! The two pistons that push on the brake shoes need to have the SHALLOWEST part of the groove (into which the roller fits) on the side that attaches to the brake back plate- ie the slope is in the opposite direction to that on the centre part that is attached to the cable- when the centre part is pulled by the cable towards the back plate the roller comes with it and runs up the ramp on the piston pushing them out towards the shoes... Hope that kind of makes sense?- basically try assembling it both ways round and compare the piston travel in the wrong way to the right way- a cable tie or strong elastic band will then be needed to hold the unit together until you assemble it with the shoes... don't forget to grease the expander well when assembling to avoid the sticking situation again. Your cable 'may' be corroded inside and therefore not moving freely- you can try squirting WD40 down the end but you may just end up with it in your eye!!! Once it is all back together you should be able to adjust the shoes so that they are just rubbing the drum using the bolt on the back plate on the opposite side to the expander mechanism- it basically has a pyramid shape on the end of the bolt that pushes the pivots of the shoes further outwards the more you wind it in. Once the shoes rub pull on the handbrake and you should be looking to only get 4 or 5 clicks of handbrake lever rise before the lever will not pull any harder (I think this is supposed to be 3 clicks for the MOT but I have never managed to get this adjustment without the shoes constantly rubbing on the drum...) Once adjusted pull the brake on and then release it a few times- you will probably find that you then need to wind the adjuster in a bit more as everything will 'settle' a bit. HTH Si Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThreePointFive Posted February 23, 2009 Author Share Posted February 23, 2009 Thanks for the explanations, I think that it is part of the problem and I've tried it the wrong way so far, need to try it the correct way, but it wouldn't explain why the shoes weren't moving much before I took it apart. I've bought a new cable so I can eliminate it from the possible causes, and again the Haynes is useless for showing how it's attached. It's arrived as a straight bar, when mine curves 180 degrees on itself and to the back of the handbrake, is it meant to be bent into shape as it doesnt feel like it is designed to bend! I don't want to start bending it if it isn't meant to either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eightpot Posted February 23, 2009 Share Posted February 23, 2009 I had a similar problem - handbrake not working too good, took a couple of bits apart to clean, lost the adjuster mechanism all over the drive, got carp in my eyes, couldn't get the thing back together and swore to buy an X-brake. Calmed meself down a bit and after many unsuccesful attempts I found it was very important to get the right balance between the handbrake cable - adjusting the slack so it's not too tight and not too loose, and balancing this with adjustment of the shoe adjuster - again not too tight and not too loose. You need to work with both adjustments till you find a happy medium. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markyboy Posted February 23, 2009 Share Posted February 23, 2009 Thanks for the explanations, I think that it is part of the problem and I've tried it the wrong way so far, need to try it the correct way, but it wouldn't explain why the shoes weren't moving much before I took it apart. I've bought a new cable so I can eliminate it from the possible causes, and again the Haynes is useless for showing how it's attached. It's arrived as a straight bar, when mine curves 180 degrees on itself and to the back of the handbrake, is it meant to be bent into shape as it doesnt feel like it is designed to bend! I don't want to start bending it if it isn't meant to either. The shoes may not have been moving much due to a badly adjusted/stretched cable. The new cable will bend, they are quite stiff but that's because it is a relatively thick, strong cable. It has to be strong because of the loads it is subjected to. Once it is fitted and it has been on a while it will effectively "set" itself intot the shape of your old cable. Mark. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThreePointFive Posted February 23, 2009 Author Share Posted February 23, 2009 I've set up the rollers facing the right way, the wrong way and nothing is making a big difference. The central part of the expander operated by the cable seems to lack full movement - how far should it be able to move? In released state it was flush with the front of the expander housing, now it's partly inside, and on full handbrake lever travel to the on position about 1/4 pokes out the rear of the backplate. The linkage to the rod that controls its movement is very loose, it can be moved quite freely even when the handbrake is on, I would have expected it to be under strain of some kind, should it be? Sorry for all the questions after the loads of help I've been given but nothing seems to be working so far. I've adjusted the shoes until they were binding, but there's still no resistance on the handbrake lever at all and wouldnt hold the car if it was put under load or release properly either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
western Posted February 23, 2009 Share Posted February 23, 2009 the expander rod moves about quite freely, approx 5mm of movement. with the centre piston pulled as far forward as possible [with the other parts correctly fitted] you should have approx 5mm of the centre slider showing at the edge of it's hole. with the rollers/upper & lower sliders removed you should be able to extract the centre slider from the expander housing very easily. it won't come out the back of the housing because the rod stops/fouls on the housing. handbrake cable will bend into place fairly easily. hth Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eightpot Posted February 23, 2009 Share Posted February 23, 2009 Sometimes the easiest jobs are the most frustrating there isn't much movement in the expander, it only moves the shoes a few mm. I think the way I finaly cracked it was to back the shoe adjuster right off, then adjust the handbrake cable till it was just about bringing the brake on when fully applied. Apply it a few times to try and centre the shoes up, then adjust a tiny bit further, then bring in the shoe adjuster till it bites correctly. on mine the shoe adjuster needed quite a few turns to back it off and apply it back as well - not like on brake drums where just a quarter turn on the adjuster locks the drum up. That threw me for a while.. at least it aint snowing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 I was going to put in the initial post that I can't buy an X brake, I've just shelled out for a winch so my new toys budget is used up for the next six months at least. The question is would SWMBO know that an X-Brake is not a genuine part when it turned up? It could just as easily be the newer version fitted to later models for improved safety FWIW I wouldn't spend anything fixing a LR handbrake, they never work for any length of time and it's a horrible PITA to mess about with them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThreePointFive Posted February 26, 2009 Author Share Posted February 26, 2009 Haha I like your thinking, but a missus isn't the problem - the lack of actual money to spend on the car really is! Hopefully I'll be able to resolve this without spending money on it, I am sure if I try adjusting the cable properly I can get back the proper tension and make the handbrake work, if not then I actually give up trying to guess and I'm going to go to an adult who knows what they're doing. It's just a case of finding time and getting it done now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
western Posted February 26, 2009 Share Posted February 26, 2009 Haha I like your thinking, but a missus isn't the problem - the lack of actual money to spend on the car really is! Hopefully I'll be able to resolve this without spending money on it, I am sure if I try adjusting the cable properly I can get back the proper tension and make the handbrake work, if not then I actually give up trying to guess and I'm going to go to an adult who knows what they're doing. It's just a case of finding time and getting it done now. if you need a hand, I could be persuaded [for a brew & biscuits] to head up this weekend to help sort it out. & bring my old expander to use if required. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThreePointFive Posted February 26, 2009 Author Share Posted February 26, 2009 You're very, very kind for the offer Ralph but I'm not here this weekend, which is part of the problem of finding time in the next few weeks! I'm going to head down to Mr Milemarker's if I can't sort it myself. Tomorrow is the last day I'll have to work on it for a while so I'll have to see if I can get it done then, if not it's back on with the prop and a quick trip down to Devon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lrfarmer Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 i've just put a new hand brake expander on mine as mine had given out. the new one was under 40quid delivered took me about an hour by the time i adjusted drove it stoping on the hand brake and readjusting. the new one had about 3mm of movement on each piston the old one was less and keeped sticking Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
western Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 You're very, very kind for the offer Ralph but I'm not here this weekend, which is part of the problem of finding time in the next few weeks! I'm going to head down to Mr Milemarker's if I can't sort it myself. Tomorrow is the last day I'll have to work on it for a while so I'll have to see if I can get it done then, if not it's back on with the prop and a quick trip down to Devon. OK, hope you can get it sorted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThreePointFive Posted February 27, 2009 Author Share Posted February 27, 2009 I've removed the flange on the prop to get the prop bolts out as they were damaged, requiring a new felt seal as well. I've fitted the new ones back in but they appear to be about 5mm shorter than the originals. I've used genuine parts so they should be alright, but this is what they look like with everything back together: Clearly they're a few mms from protruding out of the nut, is this enough to keep the prop on or should I be worried? I don't want to have to check how tight they are every day... I've done them up as tight as I can. But apart from this, everything is reassembled with the rollers correctly installed and the lever has some resistance again, but as I had to partly drain the transfer box to get the flange off without it draining out that way I can't test it. Any ideas how to refill a Tbox without a pump? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
western Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 those are not 'in safety' no thread engagement with the nylon insert, bolts need to be about 5 to 10mm longer, so the thread is protruding by 2 or more threads. are those bolts exactly the same length as the old bolts ? FRC3602 is the LR number for them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThreePointFive Posted February 27, 2009 Author Share Posted February 27, 2009 Those are 5mm or so shorter than the old ones which I can't reuse. They're genuine parts and the only ones they offered me, is there more than one part number for those bolts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
western Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 the frc3602 are 3/8"UNF x 1 3/4" these are the only bolts listed in my parts info, regardless of 90 or 110. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Milemarker Type S Posted March 1, 2009 Share Posted March 1, 2009 Any ideas how to refill a Tbox without a pump? Length of pipe with a funnel on the end held by an assistant- easiest to access the filler by taking out the centre cover of the seatbox (under your cubby box) and the bolts are definitely too short... the bolt should come right out through- the contact between the bolt and blue nylon provides the resistance that stops them undoing themselves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThreePointFive Posted March 2, 2009 Author Share Posted March 2, 2009 That's what I thought, they insist that FRC3602 is what they gave me, they have 'prop shaft bolts' and 'flange bolts' so I think the mix up was between these two, both on order and I'm getting another set from a specialist bolt supplier in case they supply the wrong ones again. I've got to take the whole lot apart again now, I can't believe how long this work is taking to do. That's a good solution to the filling problem, will have to try that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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