Government Grant for LR

[missingsid]

News from Yahoo today.

The Government has offered a grant of up to £27 million to motor giant Land Rover to build a new vehicle.

Hopefully the strings aren't too restricting.

Marc.

[freeagent]

I bet the strings will be fairly green....

[missingsid]

I bet the strings will be fairly green....

Yep no doubt, it will be interesting to see which way LR go as the credit problem should make them think about wether the market for huge expensive vehicles is sustainable.

Marc.

[GBMUD]

If Landrover put pen to paper today to start building a new car the 'credit crunch' will be a distant memory before it is launched, never mind on sale! My money would be on a hybrid of some sort. ...a modest diesel driving the front wheels with an electric motor drive to the rear perhaps?

Chris

[bobtail4x4]

What about the little thing that looks like a new mini?

XRTGX or something?

[Chicken Drumstick]

Its a shame that nobody at LR thought to use a bit of Ford technology and parts bin scavenging when they had the opportunity.

I love LR (had loads) and truly a green oval supporter. But the high end LR's are too pricey and out of my league, and now the global economy has turned seems they are out of a lot of people's leagues.

So why didn't they update the Defender???????????????????????? And support the utilitarian market?

Trucks are still selling well in the US, better than Prius type cars (probably due to price cuts and cheaper fuel - that's what Motor Trend report anyhow).

But why oh why oh why did no one at LR think......

Umm - Those Ford 9" axles look good, oh and complete with lockers or limited slip diffs. That hydroformed F150 chassis is pretty cool too......

With a little thought LR could have a top notch line up of upto date utility vehicles for a world market (instead of just the UK and a small bit of Europe).

How about a Defender as we know and love it but with modern pressed steel panels (cheaper to make and mass produce), easy construction and profitable. With a new stiffer hydorformed chassis and ultra tough Ford axles. Wheelbases could range from the current 92.9" to 150", they could even offer a Disco 3 look-alike twin cab variant with plusher interior and options. Ideal for the American market.

Take on Jeep Wranglers, 1500 light/middle weight trucks from GM, Ford, Dodge, Toyota, Nissan and so on, and all the Jap makers for the Asian and Australian markets.

Very little development would be needed as all the ground work is there all ready, it just needs Land Rover'izing.

Ideal engine solutions, base model Defender should be equipped with a 3.5 litre variant of the Jaguar AJV8 (as used in the early XJ8's) or a 2.7 V6 diesel. There's even the Ford modular V8 engine range to choose from too.

These could then be promoted as "green working vehicles" with long life service and contributing to the country's infrastructure.

Next steps if they really want to wave the green flag is to look to diesel hybrids - nobody seems to do this yet, they are all petrol for some reasons. Combine this with the technology gained from the LVC prototypes and there's loads of possibility.

A word to Land Rover - keep the bling and the high end prices if you must, but remember where and why Land Rover started and what made it a success. Produce a vehicle for the masses and not just the rich and famous.

Bring back the rugged utilitarian 4x4 workhorse and make Land Rover once again the best 4x4xFar!

[crwoody]

Well put C D. there's nothing really to add to that!

Except - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7937196.stm

[Dave W]

My understanding is that they can't redesign the Defender simply because a complete redesign would require it to meet modern crash tests. By sticking with the same basic chassis and bulkhead design they can carry on "face lifting" the vehicle for as long as they like. sadly in the land of the free their laws didn't accept the retro aspect so it had to be withdrawn from sale there because they couldn't change it and meet home market safety requirements.

There was some work done on a Defender based on a D3 chassis but to meet modern standards it'd have turned out looking something like a Freelander.

[Chicken Drumstick]

My understanding is that they can't redesign the Defender simply because a complete redesign would require it to meet modern crash tests. By sticking with the same basic chassis and bulkhead design they can carry on "face lifting" the vehicle for as long as they like. sadly in the land of the free their laws didn't accept the retro aspect so it had to be withdrawn from sale there because they couldn't change it and meet home market safety requirements.

There was some work done on a Defender based on a D3 chassis but to meet modern standards it'd have turned out looking something like a Freelander.

I think LR have still missed something though.

And as much as it pains me to say it, the cause (or lack of response) was probably the Series III, it pains me because I have a lot of very found memories of Series III Land Rovers and still own one.

But while the Series II opened up the desert in Africa and the east, along with the outback in Australia and even much of Canada and North America it had it's problems, such as weak axles, poor reliability, under powered, small fuel tank and so on.

So what did LR do about it - well sadly sod all. They moved the headlights to wings because they were legally forced to and introduced a plastic radiator grill. Ok I know this dumbs down the SIII changes, but it didn't bring anything new to the market.

The result Land Rover pulled from North America and loses almost all of its market share elsewhere (Australia, Asia and Africa mostly) to be replaced by other 4x4's that responded to the market.

The 90/110 was a welcome update, but sadly too little too late for the global market and still didn't address some of the prime issues with the Land Rover.

Today the Defender isn't even the chosen 4x4 of our own Military and its not sold in many markets with any degree of success outside the UK.

Even Top Gear where Hammond, a sell confessed LR nut and Clarkson also an LR fan chose to use a Toyota to drive to the North Pole - why? Because of what the Toyota offered most likely.

I also don't think it would be that hard to update the Defender, ok it would need a redesign, but the 1940's Rover P4 axles are well overdue for replacement anyhow.

Jeep recently re-launched a whole new Jeep. Brand new chassis, axles, engines, drivetrain and body panels. Yet it still 100% utility and a true 4x4. No namby pampy plastic fantastic kind of thing. It has a proper ladder chassis with body panels bolted to it. Simple OHV engine, and a proper old fashioned transfer box.

Old - but 100% 21st century. If they can do it, I can't see why LR can't.

Also vehicles like the pickup trucks in America or Japan are not so different. All/most ladder chassis, engine up front and a body mounted on top. Ford have just launched a whole new F150 with coil springs all round. The chassis and basic construction would make an idea basis for a new Defender IMO. All the r&d has been done, all they would need to do is bias it to off roading a bit more and tailor it to what a Land Rover should be.

They could use the design ethos of the LVC prototypes to keep it looking like a Defender, just a new one with new abilities.

This is the LVC at Gaydon, I personally quite like the look of it:

Something that looks like this available in 92.9", 110 and 127" wheelbases (or there abouts) with maybe a 150" for commerical/US market for heavier loads.

With a 3.5 DOHC AJV8 with ~220bhp and loads of torque or a 2.7 193bhp common rail diesel.

6 speed manual or auto.

Low range (electronic shift)

Option of Terrain Response or plain old diff lockers

Strong Ford 8.8 or 9" axles (or Dana 44/60 items)

It should be quiet and comfy yet functional and reliable.

The larger vehicles could be offered with a 4.4 V8 and the 3.6 TDV8 engines.

All on a new chassis or as per the LVC using a unibody (I think separate chassis would be the way to go though and just use the styling ideas from the LVC)

And then sell it out at sensible money and undercut the current Japanese offerings. Target farmers, haulers, commercial applications as well as the consumer market.

With the advance of a new chassis, LR could also look to making a better heavy duty truck in a forward control configuration, a bit like the Llama project but a lot better and aim at a more mass market than just Military.

I still think a luxury Disco 3 double cap pickup truck would work too, probably more in the US and Australia than here in the UK. But hummer and GMC, Caddy and others all make such vehicles and they have generally sold very well. I suspect this could be based on the current D3 platform or simply use the new one and slap a D3 looking pickup body on it. Keep the alloys, air con and gadget and price it higher along side the other current expensive LR's.

Sadly going green will probably not be a long term solution for LR (or any company). Mostly because it costs more than a regular vehicle to develop, has a limited audience and usually heavily compromised abilities. Its more of a current trend/fad than long term company survival IMO.

lol, think I might be getting carried away there.....

well what might have been, lol :rolleyes:

Sorry to thread hijack.

[missingsid]

Well put C D. there's nothing really to add to that!

Except - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7937196.stm

From BBC

Land Rover, which is owned by India's Tata Motors, said the car would be the smallest, lightest and most efficient it has produced.

So it will be smaller and lighter than an 80" then??

The LVC looks cute but what was it good for as it is so small?

Japanese market?

Sorry too cynical.

I guess that LR not raiding the Ford parts bin further was probably a Ford decision as they did not want to pass on too much tooling to whom ever they were going to sell LR to as they probably never intended to keep it?

Marc.

[gazelle]

That one looks like it has been caught doing something naughty! A real look of surprise. At least they are honest with the drip tray underneath. About as much of a looker as the Suzuki X-90. No, if Landrover are going to change direction, this is not the direction.

[smo]

Why arent TATA the multi billion, multi national owners paying for new vehicle development.....was a bad idea selling out to them!

[Philip Tonkin]

Why arent TATA the multi billion, multi national owners paying for new vehicle development.....was a bad idea selling out to them!

Why should they? good question.

Imagine you are a family owned business which has grown in a fast emerging economy. You continue to expand by acquiring other businesses.

Land Rover a going concern and successful during the boom time hits hard times, do you bail it out to develop a car to try and keep things ticking over. Bailing it out with money from the businesses that are still making money or do you sit back and see what happens.

If investment is not made in the UK the business would likely fail. No hardship to Tata. They walk away with all of the intellectual property and the brand and once the economy makes an upturn they start making vehicles in asia.

Why would you put your own money into keeping the business in the UK, it adds no value to the brand. I am happy for the Government to intervene using tax payers money to keep the business working here in the UK even when it does not make financial sense. That way when things pick up they will more likely keep those jobs here.

[Rich_P]

What I think Tata did was blackmail the Government into the pay out. i.e. if the Gov refused to pay out, Tata would put lots of people out of work by not putting any money into the company during this troubling times.

[missingsid]

Why should they? good question.

Imagine you are a family owned business which has grown in a fast emerging economy. You continue to expand by acquiring other businesses.

Land Rover a going concern and successful during the boom time hits hard times, do you bail it out to develop a car to try and keep things ticking over. Bailing it out with money from the businesses that are still making money or do you sit back and see what happens.

If investment is not made in the UK the business would likely fail. No hardship to Tata. They walk away with all of the intellectual property and the brand and once the economy makes an upturn they start making vehicles in asia.

Why would you put your own money into keeping the business in the UK, it adds no value to the brand. I am happy for the Government to intervene using tax payers money to keep the business working here in the UK even when it does not make financial sense. That way when things pick up they will more likely keep those jobs here.

I must admit that my initial view was that TATA should pay, but Philip is right, since most UK companies that can move to India are already doing so to save money, and TATA is already there then why would they keep LR in the UK at more expense.

Lets face it Wales had to pay companies to bring their offices and factories there with Tax Incentives.

All the motor manufacturers play the government investment game to reduce costs, its the only reason that we have any motor industry left.

Marc.

[Chicken Drumstick]

That one looks like it has been caught doing something naughty! A real look of surprise. At least they are honest with the drip tray underneath. About as much of a looker as the Suzuki X-90. No, if Landrover are going to change direction, this is not the direction.

I dunno, I quite like it.

It looks like a Land Rover, even if you couldn't see the badge. Ok I think the indicators need re-assessing but the rest just looks like an evolution of the current Defender to me.

But then again, the 90 looked quite, quite different to the original 80" Series 1 so I guess change is always met with mixed feelings.

[nicks90]

i quite like it, its not so radically different as to be unrecognisable - in the same way that the defender still looks 'like' a series 111

but as others have said, why would ford give LR all their goodies and tooling for ford hi9's and decent gearboxes so that LR could make a decent strong modern utility truck and steal all of Fords market share in the Americas (north and south)?

Yes, LR would probably be able to steal some marginal market share from the ricers in africa and australia, but ford were in trouble financially when they bought LR in the first place - so giving them stuff for free to steal more of their sales makes no sense. They bought LR for one reason only, cos they were making lots of profit and as a short term investment it made sense. It bouyed up their profit margins across the company and showed potential for a good return once sold on to another investor. Job done.

[Chicken Drumstick]

i quite like it, its not so radically different as to be unrecognisable - in the same way that the defender still looks 'like' a series 111

but as others have said, why would ford give LR all their goodies and tooling for ford hi9's and decent gearboxes so that LR could make a decent strong modern utility truck and steal all of Fords market share in the Americas (north and south)?

Yes, LR would probably be able to steal some marginal market share from the ricers in africa and australia, but ford were in trouble financially when they bought LR in the first place - so giving them stuff for free to steal more of their sales makes no sense. They bought LR for one reason only, cos they were making lots of profit and as a short term investment it made sense. It bouyed up their profit margins across the company and showed potential for a good return once sold on to another investor. Job done.

You might well be right.

Although I don't think Ford would need to fear loss of sales, the F150 is and has been the best selling vehicle for eons. I think they sell almost as many in year as Land Rover has managed in 60 years. Well not quite but ~2007 Ford sold 900,000 F-series pickup trucks, which from what I understand is a pretty regular annual sales amount. That's a lot of trucks for a BIG market. If LR could sell only 50,000 units a year into that market it would be something and still double what current Defender production is.

[landrovermanuk]

Reading one of the papers last night it said the new vehicle was going to be an entry leval Range Rover with a 4.5L engined hybride that did 60mpg. It would be the smallest, lightest, greenest Range Rover ever produced. I don't know where they got their info from....