Wheel travel/bump stops

[Off Road Toad]

I'm sure someone has a solution to this on here.

I am running a 3" suspension lift on my 90" combined with Gwyn Lewis (genuine gwyn lewis) set-up. its running 35" tyres and plus 2" bumpstops.

now, my problem is that the tyre comes up so far that it hits the floor pan/wheel well.

at maximum upward travel the axle is about 4" clear of the bump stop.

if i extend the bump stop down another 4" this would solve that problem but introduce another, ie: on normal driving or fast offroad etc, it will be constantly hitting the bump stop.

my reasoning for this is the arc through which the axle travels during articulation actually seems to move it away from the bump stop to a certain degree but during normal action it is coming straight up and down and would only have a couple or three inches of free space.

it's worth noting that the coil is almost completely bound up at this point. and i only have the problem on the rear. the front spring completely compresses before the tyre makes contact.

i do not want to cut any more out of the truck at this stage as we need to take customers round in it for demonstrations and so a wheel well is essential for the seating.

I would appreciate your thoughts on this. and hope i have made sense?

Cheers, steve

[Hybrid_From_Hell]

Cut the wheel boxes and raise them, mine are +3 to allow wheel to rise

I have reduced bump stops to allow more flex, plus a few other tweaks

http://www.fuddymuckers.co.uk/gallery/kitt...n%20testing.wmv

HTH

Nige

[Off Road Toad]

That seems logical, i will have a look and measure up.

Thanks.

[will_warne]

Yep, as Nige said you want to cut the wheel boxes. Lowered bumpstops are a generally a bad thing as they tend to be there to stop tyre/body contact. This means you're loosing precious bump travel.

[Jon White]

Yep - cut out and rasie the wheel boxes up. Mine are +3" also and the tyres still rub a bit!

Jon

[Anderzander]

Any pics from inside guys?

Have you raised the whole box or just a section?

[steve_d]

I don't really know what I'm talking about here as I've never done it but is this not the ideal time for a body lift?

It may be that there is far more involved making cutting the footwell the easiest solution.

Steve

[bishbosh]

A body lift on a defender is a bit of a challenge due to the bulkhead I believe. Certainly not as easy as a RR or Disco.

[Hybrid_From_Hell]

Mate who has some rough land has ok'd me to use it tommorrow

as I want to see what the new springs / further mods to the 90s suspension

just finished - so try out / test off road.

On road is OK, levelness is not quite right so before I do

anymore work fine tuning want to see how much flex front now,

so I'll do some pics tomm and post up

Nige

[Anderzander]

Look forward to it!

[will_warne]

Yeah, I'll be interested to see the outcome, Nige, particularly the front end.

[HoggyN]

Hitting the bump stop is not necessarily a bad thing. The bump stops should be treated as an integral part of the suspension system. They are giving you, in effect, a rising rate spring. At the moment the travel is limited by the body so lowering the bump stops so that they can do their job will not restrict the wheel travel any more than it already is.

[Hybrid_From_Hell]

Yahay

Suspension tweaks so far to compensate for the move from HT to TC seem good.

The weight difference (exc driver pies ) was vast, so a spring rething, I may do a seperate mini tech theread later as I am having a "Latheing n Beer"

eveniong in a short while to machine up a huge spacer to try to get my levels right but, 150 fronts for a V8 90 seem good and here are some pics showing rear flex and the modded wheelboxes and NOW front flex too, ran out of suitable cross axley land at mates to get any more flex, but things generally quite pleased with

I have always found getting the front to flex is piggin' hard, ........but the front !!! discloation top cones did get a look in today

HTH

Nige

PS yes I know the winch cables out and in the passenger window <cough> 'preventative measures' <cough>

[Anderzander]

I have always found getting the front to flex is piggin' hard, ........but the front !!! discloation top cones did get a look in today

Sorry to resurrect an old thread ..... but what can we do to make the front easier to flex?

I think I read a thread with folk saying its largely the bushes on the radius arm that limit it - and that they had had good results with drilling the bushes....?

I wondered if the fact that the back being is so supple means it takes up the range of motion before the front needs to move much ?

Mine also has an ARB fitted on the front but I got a lot more travel on the back with and arb on their than I am on the front with its on - so I'm presuming it isn't the major player.

Any thoughts anyone ?

[jacks906]

i am going to drill two holes in the top and bottom of the bushes i think 8mm is a good size to go with easy to fix as well if it goes wrong

failing that a 3/4 link system would be the next best option which then brings its own problems with clearance etc

but i think its the bushes and radius arms set up thats the limiting factor in it

dave

[Anderzander]

I think in the article I read they'd done it at 8 mm. I seem to remember they drilled it out and then put the drill back in at a very high speed and ran it until the rubber smoked so it sealed it.

Let me know how you get on please - I'd be very interested to see the difference it makes.

[Hybrid_From_Hell]

I have tried numerous things, some work to some degree some seem to be "Technical Fabels"

where I can see / tell no difference.

The key issue (IMVHO) is the hockey sticks and the way they locate to the base of the axle casing

when we have an axle twister situation on the rear the ball joing A Frame aloows flex, and thus it is

easish to improve on a system that seems to want to "Flex"

However on the front the same type of axle twister has two F G Big Hockey stick "Hold" everything

FROM flexing. I have tried with some success mixed Polybvushes, Drilled bushes, wide and narrow hockey

arms, and even removing (a la thoughts from Si R) 1 of the 4 bolts, and the last one - 3 bolts do allow flex

and some odd handling esp under power climbing

Others here have tried hinged arms, and other exotic things, most have detrermined as I have that

whilst a market for a flexy front end exists if they coulf just get it, the limitations are indeed the arms themslves

I now have settled on what I have - drilled bushes with an alternate of 2 top 1 bottom / 2 bottom 1 top

in each arm, on std genuine bushes, saucer shaped washers to allow flex on bushes, +5 shocks and tapered top

discolation cones plus a few other tweaks, inc soft (150 Lbs) springs reduced height bump stops etc etc - all help allow flex

but the arms really mean I have reach the limits of that sort of combo - however a really important thing

that too many people forget is you need BALANCE in both front and rear axles.

There is little point having vast rear travel and F all front, balance is the key, and one way to go a long way towards

this is to (again IMHO) NOT have springs any harder than you need, soft spring help allow flex, and hard fight it

I have lost count of the number of people who think they have a 2" lift, park next to mine, see the ride hieghts similar

then wonder why mine flexs and theres does not. You can get "Lift" via short VERY Hard springs, or as in my case

VERY Soft and VERY long spring, both giving the appearance of the same body height.

There are some real experts here on LR4x4 on suspensions (I am not one of them ) and the above is what I

have learn fiddling and learning what I can sqeeze out of a stdish system, I have considered 3 link, more

than once but with silly BHP its prob not a great option for road work

I would lastly say don't try the polybush route, destroyed them in 3 outings off road, the forces of increased flex

squeezes them until they simply split

I would be interested in any thoughts ideas or results anyone elsde has on front suspension mods esp keeping

the std arms ?

HTH

Nige

[Escape]

After the suspension lift I noticed I actually had less flex on the front then standard, due to stiffer springs. Just like Nige said, this didn't make for a nice drive, as the car wasn't balanced.

So I tried drilling the bushes in an effort to compensate, and this worked fine. I drilled one big (10 or 12mm) hole above and below the bolt and now the car is much more balanced. I know I could improve it even further by changing the springs, but with the +4" and the top heavy rollcage I don't wanna take any risks and I'm satisfied with performance as is.

[will_warne]

I have tried numerous things, some work to some degree some seem to be "Technical Fabels"

where I can see / tell no difference.

The key issue (IMVHO) is the hockey sticks and the way they locate to the base of the axle casing

when we have an axle twister situation on the rear the ball joing A Frame aloows flex, and thus it is

easish to improve on a system that seems to want to "Flex"

However on the front the same type of axle twister has two F G Big Hockey stick "Hold" everything

FROM flexing. I have tried with some success mixed Polybvushes, Drilled bushes, wide and narrow hockey

arms, and even removing (a la thoughts from Si R) 1 of the 4 bolts, and the last one - 3 bolts do allow flex

and some odd handling esp under power climbing

Others here have tried hinged arms, and other exotic things, most have detrermined as I have that

whilst a market for a flexy front end exists if they coulf just get it, the limitations are indeed the arms themslves

I now have settled on what I have - drilled bushes with an alternate of 2 top 1 bottom / 2 bottom 1 top

in each arm, on std genuine bushes, saucer shaped washers to allow flex on bushes, +5 shocks and tapered top

discolation cones plus a few other tweaks, inc soft (150 Lbs) springs reduced height bump stops etc etc - all help allow flex

but the arms really mean I have reach the limits of that sort of combo - however a really important thing

that too many people forget is you need BALANCE in both front and rear axles.

There is little point having vast rear travel and F all front, balance is the key, and one way to go a long way towards

this is to (again IMHO) NOT have springs any harder than you need, soft spring help allow flex, and hard fight it

I have lost count of the number of people who think they have a 2" lift, park next to mine, see the ride hieghts similar

then wonder why mine flexs and theres does not. You can get "Lift" via short VERY Hard springs, or as in my case

VERY Soft and VERY long spring, both giving the appearance of the same body height.

There are some real experts here on LR4x4 on suspensions (I am not one of them ) and the above is what I

have learn fiddling and learning what I can sqeeze out of a stdish system, I have considered 3 link, more

than once but with silly BHP its prob not a great option for road work

I would lastly say don't try the polybush route, destroyed them in 3 outings off road, the forces of increased flex

squeezes them until they simply split

I would be interested in any thoughts ideas or results anyone elsde has on front suspension mods esp keeping

the std arms ?

HTH

Nige

Nicely put, Nige.

You are, IMHO, correct - the arms themselves limit travel as you can only get a certain amount of misalignment between the hockey sticks. Therefore, to get more travel while accurately locating the axle you need to move the sticks closer together (can only be done to an extent) or by making the sticks longer (significantly so). Neither of these is a realistic 'bolt on' / minor fabrication option so 99% will discard it as a solution.

Then you're into either 3-link (been done to death and there are no off the self kits that are, IMHO, suitable. These MUST IMVHO use a pair of lower links and a single upper link in front axle applications due to the loadings on the links), 4-link (great if you want balance, the nicest solution IMHO but not well suited to a front axle unless you run full hydro steer and can ditch the panhard rod), reverse A-Frame (had some success, good for flex but no use if doing any speed work as a big hit on one wheel will create HUGE loads), Cross link (fairly simple BUT the forces involved are epic in proportion) or missing link (similar principal to removing a bolt from a hockey stick, can give good results but scary handling).

The real question before you embark on anything like this is ask yourself "Do I really need that much more travel or do I need balance?".

These are only my opinions, of course, and no matter how many times Nige brings out the button I'm certainly no expert! What am I doing? Wait and see

[Les Brock]

What am I doing? Wait and see

Dragging it out...thats what your doing !........

[jacks906]

[Michele]

I now have settled on what I have - drilled bushes (...) soft (150 Lbs) springs reduced height bump stops etc etc -(...) you need BALANCE in both front and rear axles.

Same for me, slotted bushes, slightly taller bumpstops to cope with soft springs at front though

(will raise wheelboxes at the rear).

150 Lbs sound "too" soft to me as my 90 is not an offroad-only toy, I have 180 lbs/"

Will try and move shocks out of the front springs asap and try some fine tuning.

I have lost count of the number of people who think they have a 2" lift, park next to mine, see the ride hieghts similar

then wonder why mine flexs and theres does not. You can get "Lift" via short VERY Hard springs, or as in my case

VERY Soft and VERY long spring, both giving the appearance of the same body height.

Again same for me and I like it a lot, very funny, I love those "looks" and comments like "hey, did you lower this truck or what??why don't you fit a 2" lift...extreme lift... bla bla bla)

PRICELESS

[Anderzander]

I'm on standard height with standard duty springs with Gwyn's challenge kit, but with the new rear damper mount and am using x springs at the back. Balance it what I want.

Don't get me wrong, I do get travel at the front - but I think the balance may have been more even before in some ways.

I also know what you mean about people getting it all wrong about lift and travel and so on. I spoke to someone just the other day who had a mad 4" lift on a Disco but standard length shocks. They thought the only thing stopping them having travel like my Gwyn challenge set up was that they'd left the ARB on..

I'll look into drilling the bushes. What would people recommend? anyone pictures of theirs done?

[Michele]

Posted by Warthog some time ago...

[fender1234]

can anyone recommend a set of springs that give about 2" lift, whilst being nice and soft as my 2" lift springs are solid, also i have a front winch so need to be able to take the weight